The reason I asked about shot taste was something you said Reiss, waaaaay back in this Thread, about the shots being more delicate with the L-I and that the L-II had more mouthfeel. OK, I believe you, but my question to you would it be possible to reduce line pressure enough to duplicate the L-I "Delicacy" if I wished to do so?
The L1 is the best I can make it within the design limits imposed
The L1-P is better, but then it needs to be; it costs considerably more, is considerably larger, plumb in only and 240V only, so the customer is being asked to do more
Don't worry, the definition will not be blunt or murky in the way a pump machine is, or the way it would be if I had added a second spring
It's quite a different design, with a much more powerful heat exchanger
If you set the line pressure too low you will starve the heat exchangers, or wait a long time for them to reload
The L1 is in essence a dipper design that does not overheat with consecutive use (all dippers over heat, and the ones set off the boiler like the Izzo Alex leva (which looks like a Bosco copy with a PID added as a little fashion accessory) & Bosco go cold at idle)
Our other machines are conventional HX designs, but properly engineered without cost cutting (we don't use a toy Mater pressure stat like you will find on Kees van der Westen's idrocompressos, for example) and some nice refinements like independent heat exchangers, which I'm not sure if anyone else bothers with - most have common rail cold fed HX I think
If you read i think page 3 of the Idrocompressor manual they actually state that their design goes cool at idle, but its no problem because they have developed a volumetric pump to deliver a measured 60mL through the group before you pull the shot to lift the temperature back up. If this isn't an admission of a basic design failure, i don't know what is
I urge everyone to stick whatever temperature measurement equipment they like on our groups and tell us what beats it, because they are incredibly stable and incredibly simple, which translates into exceptional espresso, almost no unplanned downtime, the opportunity for suitably skilled people to self maintain, parts in 3 days to anywhere in the world and just an all round superior ownership experience
The taste difference makes sense Stephen, higher pressure during pre infusion will force more water to the group so the lever will probably catch sooner than on the L1.
If you think about it the extraction will start at a higher pressure (the lever 'bites' earlier) and you will probably get a different pressure profile during the shot.
With a good pressure regulator you will also have the ability to test anything from 1.5 bars up to your line pressure which sometimes may be even 6. 6 bar pre infusion will taste different than 3 so there's a lot to play with to tune the machine to your taste...
Reiss Gunson post=7730 wrote: It's quite a different design, with a much more powerful heat exchanger
If you set the line pressure too low you will starve the heat exchangers, or wait a long time for them to reload
Does this mean the heating element is closer to the HX? The HX is longer?
From the L-II Posts the 6Bar line pressure was way to much for proper operation and thankfully they Posted that the 3Bar setting (3.3?) was working just fine. I suspect roast and grind has a lot to do with that, but that is why I am asking the question so I can better understand the mechanics of why one would work and one not.
I understand the pre-infusion with complete saturation of the puck will cause the Lever to catch earlier and I have been trying for that Lever position ever since I figured that out.
My understanding is that the heat exchanger is much bigger and heavier, like a large aquarium can house a larger fish. More mass, more brass, more surface to take energy from the much bigger boiler space around it.
I suspect you were asking many questions when you took the factory tour and the commercial machines must have been a topic of conversation at some point in time.
Question: From the information posted, flushing the group on an LI-P, LII, LIII effectively cools the brew temp of the water? Whereas I can raise the water brew temp by flushing, typically micro/short flushing, on my LI if I need/want a higher brew temp.
And, although I don't typically do this, I can manually increase the pressure applied to the puck on my LI, during short pre-infusion time and/or when the lever engages closer to vertical/top of the cam. With higher BAR/psi PI apart of the LI-P, LII & LIII the initial "pull" pressure is generally higher?
Stephen & Frans: I'll be anxiuosly awaiting your full objective & comprehensive comparison between in the cup taste differences between pulls on your LI and your LI-P
Reiss Gunson post=7730 wrote: It's quite a different design, with a much more powerful heat exchanger
If you set the line pressure too low you will starve the heat exchangers, or wait a long time for them to reload
The L1 is in essence a dipper design that does not overheat with consecutive use (all dippers over heat, and the ones set off the boiler like the Izzo Alex leva (which looks like a Bosco copy with a PID added as a little fashion accessory) & Bosco go cold at idle)
Our other machines are conventional HX designs, but properly engineered without cost cutting (we don't use a toy Mater pressure stat like you will find on Kees van der Westen's idrocompressos, for example) and some nice refinements like independent groups, which I'm not sure if anyone else bothers with - most have common rail cold fed HX I think
I believe La San Marco ("LSM") is the manufacturer of the group that resides on the Alex Leva...not Bosco/Bosco design.
at the photographer's now? whoa, whoa, whoa. too fast
i expect we'll get it assembled this week, but then there is the all important issue of packaging - this is easily as big a challenge as getting the machine right - it is a key activity in our business
then it needs to go to the photographer
and then we will build a batch of 10 and see if anyone buys one
i appreciate that people are keen for updates, but it is important that i let our manufacturer get on with it at their own pace - they have a commercial incentive to turn it into cash and get revenue flowing so I'm sure they will get it completed at the earliest opportunity
Right, the packaging. Thankfully, you've got a wealth of experience with that now so it shouldn't be too time consuming. Did I mention my birthday is next month?
Thanks Reiss, and in the meantime I have fine tuned my Moka Pots, something I did not think possible! It has boiled down, pun intended, to grind and tamp: who'd have thought?!!? :-)
I decided that having both machines side by side to do a comparison would take 2 grinders of the same type and that I do not have so that A-B comparison will not happen.
Instead truthful impression will have to suffice :-)
If this is the PRO version, why not offer the option of choosing single or double spring? Why not offer to the owners the possibility of choosing their brewing style? Low pressure for low-medium doses, or high pressure for medium-high doses.
Hey, or what about a custom single spring with 9 bar pressure instead of 6.5 bar or the 11 bar of the double spring?
you know perfectly well the reasons and my position on this, and you are bear baiting
if you are going to make claims about spring pressure, may i suggest you don't quote incorrect information posted on other forums?
if you are only getting 6.5 bar with a single spring you do not know how to measure it correctly - i.e. you have not eliminated the air
measure it correctly and you will see the single spring exerts 11 bar
that aside you are only measuring static pressure anyway - what you really need to measure is dynamic pressure - the pressure exerted on the coffee as water starts to move through the puck
I've tried the double spring and it ruins the taste - i'll happily sell you the brand new double spring top i have here - £500 delivered
I can get a double spring much cheaper, was not my intention to get one for you with my post. Just tried to improve your bussiness with some ideas, you don't like it? No problem, It's fine for me.
1.5 years ago I measured and got 8 bar without first getting the "cushion" of air out so obviously the spring potential is higher than 8 bar.
Just owning and attaching a measuring instrument does not make me or anyone else an expert overnight. I am aware of that and I am frequently surprised when someone purchases an instrument and suddenly behaves as if he knows stuff. Is the instrument calibrated, is the result the same with different instruments et cetera.
Comments
I promise you won't be disappointed moving from an L1 to an L1-P
That's about the best I can do
The line fed pressure is obviously variable if you fit a regulator, but as Jenny has already confirmed in the L2 thread it works best at about 3 bar
The L1 is the best I can make it within the design limits imposed
The L1-P is better, but then it needs to be; it costs considerably more, is considerably larger, plumb in only and 240V only, so the customer is being asked to do more
Don't worry, the definition will not be blunt or murky in the way a pump machine is, or the way it would be if I had added a second spring
If you set the line pressure too low you will starve the heat exchangers, or wait a long time for them to reload
The L1 is in essence a dipper design that does not overheat with consecutive use (all dippers over heat, and the ones set off the boiler like the Izzo Alex leva (which looks like a Bosco copy with a PID added as a little fashion accessory) & Bosco go cold at idle)
Our other machines are conventional HX designs, but properly engineered without cost cutting (we don't use a toy Mater pressure stat like you will find on Kees van der Westen's idrocompressos, for example) and some nice refinements like independent heat exchangers, which I'm not sure if anyone else bothers with - most have common rail cold fed HX I think
If you read i think page 3 of the Idrocompressor manual they actually state that their design goes cool at idle, but its no problem because they have developed a volumetric pump to deliver a measured 60mL through the group before you pull the shot to lift the temperature back up. If this isn't an admission of a basic design failure, i don't know what is
I urge everyone to stick whatever temperature measurement equipment they like on our groups and tell us what beats it, because they are incredibly stable and incredibly simple, which translates into exceptional espresso, almost no unplanned downtime, the opportunity for suitably skilled people to self maintain, parts in 3 days to anywhere in the world and just an all round superior ownership experience
If you think about it the extraction will start at a higher pressure (the lever 'bites' earlier) and you will probably get a different pressure profile during the shot.
With a good pressure regulator you will also have the ability to test anything from 1.5 bars up to your line pressure which sometimes may be even 6.
6 bar pre infusion will taste different than 3 so there's a lot to play with to tune the machine to your taste...
Kfir.
Does this mean the heating element is closer to the HX? The HX is longer?
From the L-II Posts the 6Bar line pressure was way to much for proper operation and thankfully they Posted that the 3Bar setting (3.3?) was working just fine. I suspect roast and grind has a lot to do with that, but that is why I am asking the question so I can better understand the mechanics of why one would work and one not.
I understand the pre-infusion with complete saturation of the puck will cause the Lever to catch earlier and I have been trying for that Lever position ever since I figured that out.
So how does a HX get more powerful?
I suspect you were asking many questions when you took the factory tour and the commercial machines must have been a topic of conversation at some point in time.
And, although I don't typically do this, I can manually increase the pressure applied to the puck on my LI, during short pre-infusion time and/or when the lever engages closer to vertical/top of the cam. With higher BAR/psi PI apart of the LI-P, LII & LIII the initial "pull" pressure is generally higher?
Stephen & Frans: I'll be anxiuosly awaiting your full objective & comprehensive comparison between in the cup taste differences between pulls on your LI and your LI-P
I believe La San Marco ("LSM") is the manufacturer of the group that resides on the Alex Leva...not Bosco/Bosco design.
The company that make the group we use is a tap and valve manufacturer in northern Italy
So they make all sorts of valves and tapware, not just for espresso machines
They also make the 'izzo group' - ie an 'izzo' design that they produce for izzo
Bezzera make their own group
Reiss
The enhanced plumb in kit for the L1 has 40mm feet as you need a bit more space under the machine for the drain hose
We usually put 30mm feet on the L2 and L3 as the drain hose is not exiting through the chassis so there is enough room
Paul, Posts #'s 7508-7510 in this Thread. Sneak peak pics.
+1! I think it is at the photographers now.
I am already planning Mods to it :woohoo:
i expect we'll get it assembled this week, but then there is the all important issue of packaging - this is easily as big a challenge as getting the machine right - it is a key activity in our business
then it needs to go to the photographer
and then we will build a batch of 10 and see if anyone buys one
i appreciate that people are keen for updates, but it is important that i let our manufacturer get on with it at their own pace - they have a commercial incentive to turn it into cash and get revenue flowing so I'm sure they will get it completed at the earliest opportunity
reiss.
Instead truthful impression will have to suffice :-)
Hey, or what about a custom single spring with 9 bar pressure instead of 6.5 bar or the 11 bar of the double spring?
you know perfectly well the reasons and my position on this, and you are bear baiting
if you are going to make claims about spring pressure, may i suggest you don't quote incorrect information posted on other forums?
if you are only getting 6.5 bar with a single spring you do not know how to measure it correctly - i.e. you have not eliminated the air
measure it correctly and you will see the single spring exerts 11 bar
that aside you are only measuring static pressure anyway - what you really need to measure is dynamic pressure - the pressure exerted on the coffee as water starts to move through the puck
I've tried the double spring and it ruins the taste - i'll happily sell you the brand new double spring top i have here - £500 delivered
kind regards
reiss
This is what I get:
http://s8.postimg.org/is6sd676d/IMG_20150328_131350.jpg
I can get a double spring much cheaper, was not my intention to get one for you with my post. Just tried to improve your bussiness with some ideas, you don't like it? No problem, It's fine for me.
Kind regards,
JJ
Just owning and attaching a measuring instrument does not make me or anyone else an expert overnight. I am aware of that and I am frequently surprised when someone purchases an instrument and suddenly behaves as if he knows stuff. Is the instrument calibrated, is the result the same with different instruments et cetera.
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