Sorry, I should have been more specific. Elsewhere on the forum, Trevor Watters and I have published a few video's about this.
My routine is currently like this:
1) Fill a small espresso cup with hot water from the hot water tap (twice, the second fill is hotter) 2) Weigh and grind 17g of beans, tamp very light with the convex tamper 3) Place the Acaia scale under the group, the (now empty) cup on it, scale TARE'd to zero 4) Open Acaia app on phone and fill in the parameters (17g in, planned 22g out for instance) 5) Open steam wand wide to release pressure for a few moments, which wakes up the heating element (I look at the pressure gauge and see that the needle touches the point where the p-stat will start the heater) 6) Lock in the portafilter and allow 6-7 seconds pre-infusion as the heating element heats up the boiler and builds up pressure (the speed depends in part on the Wattage of your element). 7) At the highest pressure, carefully release the lever and press Start on the Acaia (app or scale) 8) At 22g espresso, press Stop on the Acaia (scale or app) and replace the cup with another cup.
After taking off the portafilter, a tiny flush to get the "Pfwsht" out and ensure the TS is actively flowing again.
Then I usually take a picture to save in the Acaia app so I can later look up the brew and see the parameters and remember the result again.
Testing the 2 bar pre-infusion on the Rocket works well so that will be very promising for the silent beauty of the L1-P with its more versatile and gradual spring lever pressure profile.
Stephen Sweeney post=6741 wrote: How did you get the vibe pump(maybe rotary?) to throttle back to that lower setting?
It's a vibe pump. It typically delivers about 15 bar and an OPV= Over Pressure Valve usually ensures that the pressure delivered is just 9 bar. The OPV allows extra pressure (water) to flow back to the tank.
In this case I have two OPV's, one set to 2 bar, the other to 9 bar and the switch on the front activates the lower pressure OPV. So if the 2 bar OPV is not active, the pressure builds up to 9 bar, if active, it will be 2 bar.
The on-topic experience of it is that the 2 bar pre-infusion is very pleasant! On the Rocket I can decide to end pre-infusion by switching to 9 bar, on the LI-P we can release the lever.
In the cup I do not expect a world of difference, in operation I expect even more ease, a routine even more simplified at the same consistency of excellence in espresso.
Plus the drip tray grate people have been asking for, and the cup warmer people have been wishing to have on their LI, and a larger shot volume thrown into the deal ;-)
Stephen Sweeney post=6706 wrote: Are you running your L-I so that the Pstat shuts off the boiler heating element at 1.4bar? If so what pressure will it turn back on?
At home now, so checked: p-stat clicks on as the gauge needle points at 1 bar and off at the start of the 1.4 bar stripe.
Max shot volume 45g (50g if one waits for those drops) at that pre-infusion pressure.
If you release the lever on your LI at the low boiler pressure point, for instance 1 bar, then at that moment the brew chamber above the puck is filled with an amount of water and a small column of air above it. The pressure has compressed the air somewhat to allow the water to enter.
If you release at 1.4 bar, then that small column of air is naturally more compressed and more water has been allowed to get into the brew chamber. You notice that the lever 'grabs' a little earlier.
If you have the LI-P and if you have 2 bar on the line into the HX, then the brew chamber fills with a little more water yet again, and the lever grabs a bit earlier again.
I doubt it will be linear, so at 2 bar you might not get twice as much water into the group (and out into your cups). And it's not necessary too. But it will be more.
More is not better just because of being more, and if had side by side, both the LI and the LI-P will in my estimation deliver excellent espresso, provided the operator know what he's doing.
It's just that the guys who have been asking for "how can I get the lever to grab sooner" and "Could I order a wire grate for my drip tray" and "I would have loved it if the LI had a cup warmer!" can now get ready to have all that ;-)
I agree with some of the things Stephen has stated already. I'd be very interested in this new model, but I would have to know and understand the what/how/why of the difference in the cup. This is saying, of course, there would be ANY difference in taste. I'm not discounting the other advantages of the new design, but I'd need to justify a new purchase on more than aesthetics.
I've always understood one of the advantages to lever machines was the gentle pre-infusion, so I'm interested as to the benefit of performing this part of the process at a higher pressure. For me, volume is not a concern. I've never wished for more volume in my cup, but then again, I tend to be a bit more "old-school" in my operation. I believe this type of machine has it's roots in Italian coffee culture, and therefore I strive to replicate the coffee I receive when I am there. I dose more in the traditional realm of 14-15g, and look to ideally end up with somewhere in the 23-24g range out. I find when I obtain those parameters, I'm happiest. Unless, of course, I'm pulling singles, which I ABSOLUTELY believe are the machines sweet spot. The singles I pull are heaven-sent.
Salvatore Taibi post=6759 wrote: I tend to be a bit more "old-school" in my operation. I believe this type of machine has it's roots in Italian coffee culture, and therefore I strive to replicate the coffee I receive when I am there. I dose more in the traditional realm of 14-15g, and look to ideally end up with somewhere in the 23-24g range out. I find when I obtain those parameters, I'm happiest. Unless, of course, I'm pulling singles, which I ABSOLUTELY believe are the machines sweet spot. The singles I pull are heaven-sent.
This is all very intriguing.
What is your routine for pulling singles? Which basket do you use? I never pull singles, so it will be nice to try that which such a recommendation!
There are conservative minds around who have not, and will not, accept that the unconventional design of the L1 is any good: we want to sell these people a machine and the L1-P will make it harder for them to refuse
It is true that the L2-3 architecture gives more body in the shot
It is true that the L2-3 architecture handles large doses with zero fuss, relative to the L1
It is true that unless you manipulate things the brew weight out of the L2 will be greater than the L1 - this is a feature of the slightly higher pre-infusion pressure
The L1-P is only available as plumb in and 240V, and it is significantly larger. For these reasons I doubt it will steal many sales off the L1
I see it as important that we plug this gap in our line up if we are to build our reputation as lever espresso specialists
Presently prospective customers can say I want an L3 in my busy cafe, I want an L2 in my restaurant, and I want the same machine in single group format in my bar and we don't have a machine to offer them
It is true that the L2-3 architecture gives more body in the shot
Only because of the slightly higher in-line pressure?? No other factors as initial temperature of the water to the coffee, or....??? If so, it makes me wonder if with a higher boiler pressure and a restrictor to control water temp in the siphon, it would be possible to get the same effect. (I guess some other components have to be exchanged as well).
It is true that the L2-3 architecture handles large doses with zero fuss, relative to the L1
Same question, but it seems logic that the answer is positive. What is actually the routine on a machine with L2 architecture? (Sorry, i didn't look on the forum if it is already there)
Mark de Raad post=6763 wrote: What is your routine for pulling singles? Which basket do you use? I never pull singles, so it will be nice to try that which such a recommandation!mark
Mark, I use a La Marzocco Advanced Precision 7g basket. I usually dose around 8g, and it seems my palate is happiest when I'm extracting around 11-12g of liquid. Of course, this is dependent upon your beans and personal taste. I grind as I would per my normal routine, but for tamping I use an old pill bottle, inverted so I'm tamping with the top. It fits almost perfectly, and until I go hog wild and pony up the cash for a Tidaka Board Tamper, it will have to do!
Reiss, Out of curiosity, is the spring different in the L2/L3? Otherwise, what is providing more body in the cup... could it be due to the pre-infusion? (Edit: I see Mark beat me to the question!)
As I think I wrote somewhere before, the difference isn't just pressure, it's also flow
The L1 is low pressure, high flow
The L2 is higher pressure (but still very low relative to a pump machine) and low flow
The ability to get a greater volume of water into the group faster means the lever grabs lower down after say 4 seconds of pre-infusion, so the spring is more compressed and is therefore exerting more pressure on the piston in the first few seconds of extraction
Asking me to provide a reconciliation of the differences between the L1 and the L2 is time consuming and wouldn't really get you any closer to a purchase decision one way or the other
It's clear that there is enough interest in the L1-P to justify making it a reality, so we'll get started on it in January and report back when we have something to show you
I'm just sitting here at 18:30 in the late afternoon sun in another cloudless Hawkes Bay sky cooking a chicken with a can of beer inside it on a weber Q bbq, and the thought came to me how best to describe the L1 vs L2 difference
The L1 is a design that gives you the inimitable taste that only a dipper gives you, but thanks to the open thermosiphon it is thermally stable, whether it's the first shot or the last of 12 consecutive shots
The L2 has more body, at the expense of being less delicate, and meets the needs of those who want to dose beyond 18g with ease
The L1 is our blockbuster product so please be assured that is not going anywhere, but we need to meet the needs of our customers where we see a pattern in the requests, and that's why we need the L1-P
So the L1-P has the longer water wand on it that is found on the L2, and is available as a after sales option for the L1, which from memory you have
With respect, I don't share your concerns regarding the water wand; you place your cup on the drip tray and you progressively open the hot water toggle valve
Sure, the shower mixer style of system from La Marzocco is lovely, but as you know we are all about simplicity so you'll never see us go down that path
You can screw on whatever kind of tap you like, but at the end of it you are drawing off water that is coming out in excess of 100C once enough water has been drawn for all the fittings to heat up, so yes water above 100C is going to give off steam
Users who get in trouble are holding the cup with one hand and operating the valve with the other. This approach is unsafe and is likely to result in a burnt hand
Place any receptacle for hot water on the drip tray and remove your free hand from the area before operating the toggle valve and you will have no trouble whatsoever
I never hang onto the cup, I just do not like spreading the contents of the cup all over the machine and/or the counter. I am not stupid enough to hang onto the steam pressure washer.
The modifications to the wand by lengthening and or offsetting have helped a bit. The best Mod might be that want that one of the Posters made that allows the steam to escape up and water to flow from the bottom.
An improved hot water wand would be a nice to have feature. Naturally, I burned my hand once and I learned from that experience so now even my 11 year old daughter (with the help of my brief tutorial) can use the current wand for filling her tea cup w/o any problems so it's perfectly acceptable.
An extra spiffy water feed mixing in cold water behind the front end, with valves etcetera, would be something people wish for but how many would pay a considerable sum for a mod like that which would probably need frequent servicing...
It's like some features on the LI-P that people wanted but now the LI-P is almost there, they realize the LI as it is, is quite a nice arrangement too ;-)
I think it's all beautiful and extra things cost extra. Simple!
Comments
How do you "wake up" the heating element? I just wait (what can seem a long time) until the falling pressure in the boiler kicks on the pressurestat.
Matt
I would imagine that on the proposed L-I-P and the current L-I all you do is a quick/short pull of the steam toggle and the element will turn on.
My routine is currently like this:
1) Fill a small espresso cup with hot water from the hot water tap (twice, the second fill is hotter)
2) Weigh and grind 17g of beans, tamp very light with the convex tamper
3) Place the Acaia scale under the group, the (now empty) cup on it, scale TARE'd to zero
4) Open Acaia app on phone and fill in the parameters (17g in, planned 22g out for instance)
5) Open steam wand wide to release pressure for a few moments, which wakes up the heating element (I look at the pressure gauge and see that the needle touches the point where the p-stat will start the heater)
6) Lock in the portafilter and allow 6-7 seconds pre-infusion as the heating element heats up the boiler and builds up pressure (the speed depends in part on the Wattage of your element).
7) At the highest pressure, carefully release the lever and press Start on the Acaia (app or scale)
8) At 22g espresso, press Stop on the Acaia (scale or app) and replace the cup with another cup.
After taking off the portafilter, a tiny flush to get the "Pfwsht" out and ensure the TS is actively flowing again.
Then I usually take a picture to save in the Acaia app so I can later look up the brew and see the parameters and remember the result again.
Matt
[video width=425 height=344 type=vimeo]115528176
It's a vibe pump. It typically delivers about 15 bar and an OPV= Over Pressure Valve usually ensures that the pressure delivered is just 9 bar. The OPV allows extra pressure (water) to flow back to the tank.
In this case I have two OPV's, one set to 2 bar, the other to 9 bar and the switch on the front activates the lower pressure OPV. So if the 2 bar OPV is not active, the pressure builds up to 9 bar, if active, it will be 2 bar.
http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.nl/2013/03/espresso-brew-pressure-profiling-dual.html
The on-topic experience of it is that the 2 bar pre-infusion is very pleasant! On the Rocket I can decide to end pre-infusion by switching to 9 bar, on the LI-P we can release the lever.
In the cup I do not expect a world of difference, in operation I expect even more ease, a routine even more simplified at the same consistency of excellence in espresso.
Plus the drip tray grate people have been asking for, and the cup warmer people have been wishing to have on their LI, and a larger shot volume thrown into the deal ;-)
At home now, so checked: p-stat clicks on as the gauge needle points at 1 bar and off at the start of the 1.4 bar stripe.
Max shot volume 45g (50g if one waits for those drops) at that pre-infusion pressure.
How does it do that?
If you release at 1.4 bar, then that small column of air is naturally more compressed and more water has been allowed to get into the brew chamber. You notice that the lever 'grabs' a little earlier.
If you have the LI-P and if you have 2 bar on the line into the HX, then the brew chamber fills with a little more water yet again, and the lever grabs a bit earlier again.
I doubt it will be linear, so at 2 bar you might not get twice as much water into the group (and out into your cups). And it's not necessary too. But it will be more.
More is not better just because of being more, and if had side by side, both the LI and the LI-P will in my estimation deliver excellent espresso, provided the operator know what he's doing.
It's just that the guys who have been asking for "how can I get the lever to grab sooner" and "Could I order a wire grate for my drip tray" and "I would have loved it if the LI had a cup warmer!" can now get ready to have all that ;-)
I've always understood one of the advantages to lever machines was the gentle pre-infusion, so I'm interested as to the benefit of performing this part of the process at a higher pressure. For me, volume is not a concern. I've never wished for more volume in my cup, but then again, I tend to be a bit more "old-school" in my operation. I believe this type of machine has it's roots in Italian coffee culture, and therefore I strive to replicate the coffee I receive when I am there. I dose more in the traditional realm of 14-15g, and look to ideally end up with somewhere in the 23-24g range out. I find when I obtain those parameters, I'm happiest. Unless, of course, I'm pulling singles, which I ABSOLUTELY believe are the machines sweet spot. The singles I pull are heaven-sent.
This is all very intriguing.
As far as cup warmers go why not put a rail around the top of your L-I and call it good? It gets plenty hot up there.
Even with the silicone mat it keeps the cups warm.
I agree!
Also that the LI delivers absolute beauties in the cup already.
What is your routine for pulling singles? Which basket do you use? I never pull singles, so it will be nice to try that which such a recommendation!
mark
It is true that the L2-3 architecture gives more body in the shot
It is true that the L2-3 architecture handles large doses with zero fuss, relative to the L1
It is true that unless you manipulate things the brew weight out of the L2 will be greater than the L1 - this is a feature of the slightly higher pre-infusion pressure
The L1-P is only available as plumb in and 240V, and it is significantly larger. For these reasons I doubt it will steal many sales off the L1
I see it as important that we plug this gap in our line up if we are to build our reputation as lever espresso specialists
Presently prospective customers can say I want an L3 in my busy cafe, I want an L2 in my restaurant, and I want the same machine in single group format in my bar and we don't have a machine to offer them
Only because of the slightly higher in-line pressure?? No other factors as initial temperature of the water to the coffee, or....??? If so, it makes me wonder if with a higher boiler pressure and a restrictor to control water temp in the siphon, it would be possible to get the same effect. (I guess some other components have to be exchanged as well).
Same question, but it seems logic that the answer is positive. What is actually the routine on a machine with L2 architecture? (Sorry, i didn't look on the forum if it is already there)
Mark
Mark,
I use a La Marzocco Advanced Precision 7g basket. I usually dose around 8g, and it seems my palate is happiest when I'm extracting around 11-12g of liquid. Of course, this is dependent upon your beans and personal taste. I grind as I would per my normal routine, but for tamping I use an old pill bottle, inverted so I'm tamping with the top. It fits almost perfectly, and until I go hog wild and pony up the cash for a Tidaka Board Tamper, it will have to do!
Reiss,
Out of curiosity, is the spring different in the L2/L3? Otherwise, what is providing more body in the cup... could it be due to the pre-infusion? (Edit: I see Mark beat me to the question!)
As I think I wrote somewhere before, the difference isn't just pressure, it's also flow
The L1 is low pressure, high flow
The L2 is higher pressure (but still very low relative to a pump machine) and low flow
The ability to get a greater volume of water into the group faster means the lever grabs lower down after say 4 seconds of pre-infusion, so the spring is more compressed and is therefore exerting more pressure on the piston in the first few seconds of extraction
Asking me to provide a reconciliation of the differences between the L1 and the L2 is time consuming and wouldn't really get you any closer to a purchase decision one way or the other
It's clear that there is enough interest in the L1-P to justify making it a reality, so we'll get started on it in January and report back when we have something to show you
The L1 is a design that gives you the inimitable taste that only a dipper gives you, but thanks to the open thermosiphon it is thermally stable, whether it's the first shot or the last of 12 consecutive shots
The L2 has more body, at the expense of being less delicate, and meets the needs of those who want to dose beyond 18g with ease
The L1 is our blockbuster product so please be assured that is not going anywhere, but we need to meet the needs of our customers where we see a pattern in the requests, and that's why we need the L1-P
Reiss
I personally do not use the steam wand very much, maybe a once or twice a month, so that is of little concern but the water dispensing is of concern.
So the L1-P has the longer water wand on it that is found on the L2, and is available as a after sales option for the L1, which from memory you have
With respect, I don't share your concerns regarding the water wand; you place your cup on the drip tray and you progressively open the hot water toggle valve
Sure, the shower mixer style of system from La Marzocco is lovely, but as you know we are all about simplicity so you'll never see us go down that path
You can screw on whatever kind of tap you like, but at the end of it you are drawing off water that is coming out in excess of 100C once enough water has been drawn for all the fittings to heat up, so yes water above 100C is going to give off steam
Users who get in trouble are holding the cup with one hand and operating the valve with the other. This approach is unsafe and is likely to result in a burnt hand
Place any receptacle for hot water on the drip tray and remove your free hand from the area before operating the toggle valve and you will have no trouble whatsoever
The modifications to the wand by lengthening and or offsetting have helped a bit. The best Mod might be that want that one of the Posters made that allows the steam to escape up and water to flow from the bottom.
[video width=425 height=344 type=youtube]TtjkLEvTJpk
For heating a cup it works great! For adding water to an existing drink then not so much.
It's like some features on the LI-P that people wanted but now the LI-P is almost there, they realize the LI as it is, is quite a nice arrangement too ;-)
I think it's all beautiful and extra things cost extra. Simple!