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LONDINIUM I-P
Right, project LI - P starts January 2015
It is a plumbed machine only (no tank, no pump)
It will look exactly the same as the L2 and L3 and have the same architecture
It will be 240V only (240V is there in American homes, just people haven't quite woken up to how easy it is to access yet) and we will probably use a 2700W element
The boiler will be about 7 litres i expect
It will have a wire drip tray, just the same as the L2 & L3
It will have a cup warmer, just the same as the L2 and L3
So as you can see, i do agree to things once I work out how we can package all the solid requests into a winning package, but i can't indulge in developing every request that arises on an ad-hoc basis
This machine will give the wire drip tray and cup warmer grumblers some xmas cheer, and also something for those who want the taste of an L2 and L3, but simply haven't got the bench space
The L1 - P will have the same height & depth dimensions as the L2 and be about 375-380mm wide
Expressions of interest, not commitments to buy, would be appreciated as it will determine how many L1 - Ps are made in the first batch
I haven't fully costed it yet, but i expect it will retail at about GBP2200 plus VAT, where applicable
Merry Xmas!
It is a plumbed machine only (no tank, no pump)
It will look exactly the same as the L2 and L3 and have the same architecture
It will be 240V only (240V is there in American homes, just people haven't quite woken up to how easy it is to access yet) and we will probably use a 2700W element
The boiler will be about 7 litres i expect
It will have a wire drip tray, just the same as the L2 & L3
It will have a cup warmer, just the same as the L2 and L3
So as you can see, i do agree to things once I work out how we can package all the solid requests into a winning package, but i can't indulge in developing every request that arises on an ad-hoc basis
This machine will give the wire drip tray and cup warmer grumblers some xmas cheer, and also something for those who want the taste of an L2 and L3, but simply haven't got the bench space
The L1 - P will have the same height & depth dimensions as the L2 and be about 375-380mm wide
Expressions of interest, not commitments to buy, would be appreciated as it will determine how many L1 - Ps are made in the first batch
I haven't fully costed it yet, but i expect it will retail at about GBP2200 plus VAT, where applicable
Merry Xmas!
Comments
So for we north American folks that is a bit less than 15" wide x 19-3/4" deep x 18-7/8" high (for the cabinet).
So it appears that it will NOT fit under a standard kitchen upper cabinet height of 18" off the bench. Is that because of the drip tray?
It would be interesting to do a poll of how many people have their L-I's under the cabinet uppers; is there a way you could send out a bulk email to privately inquire about that and then Post the results (numbers and not names) on line?
I'm curious about the taste differences between the L1 and the L2 and L3. I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere but I wasn't able to find it when doing a quick search.
My L1 is in a location where I do not have constraints on overhead space, it is plumbed in and is wired for 240VAC (in North America.... which was very easy to implement). I have easy access to a drain for the plumb out feature. This would be a drop in replacement in my case, and I know several local people that would purchase my L1 on short notice.
I have the space, and the power and could probably figure out the drain.
Most folks would be just fine in lifting a cabinet.
Would the top of the L-I,P have the same design as the L-II ??? Photos of the top shelf of the L-II anybody?
if you go to the home page of my website you can click through the images until you arrive at the image of the customer side angle shot of the L3, taken from slightly above and this shows the top of the machine
the boiler shot of the L3 provides a more detailed view when the top panel has been removed
best
reiss.
Do the sides and back of the machine just pop off like the current L-I?
yes the panel attachments are the same as the L1 on the sides (pop off) and a screw off rear panel
the top panel is different on the L2 & L3 from the series two L1, as you have a parapet panel and the top panel screws into the top of the parapet panel, rather than a pop off top panel
the top panel is not sloped, even if the image creates the impression that it is
the vents in the top panel are just that; vents, to let excess heat from the boiler out
This is why I was hoping for detailed photos of the machine, with the case off as part of the photo gallery, showing the assembly and how it could fit into the work area. Just having a machine sitting there does not mean that it is serviced in the final location. I pivot my L-I around on the counter to access the various screws out of necessity and fint that a PITA.
this image shows the threadserts that the screws that secure the top panel tighten down into
Is that the Steam Wand and Pressure Gauge on the bottom right of the boiler in the photo?
UPDATED QUESTION
As Justin mentioned, I'd really like to know more about the taste differences between the current LI and the LI - P.
I know this is just a cosmetic request but if this is going to be the ultimate 1 group then I'd love for the back panel to be a little bit more interesting than a plain flat panel since it would be very visible in my kitchen.
One could adorn the machine to one's own taste, commissioning a metal worker to create a silver mermaid's profile to stick on it, or a stainless steel copy of a tattoo. I might ask Tije to create a metal thing on the back, a symbol out of a math font, or have that carved by a computer driven machine.
That would make the machine only more unique and less dependent on a personal taste.
http://londiniumespresso.com/forum/londinium-i-owners-forum/19-londinium-ii-owners
Ha ha. Very clever Frans.
I'm familiar with vinyl as one of my friends has done this to his car but that's not the look I want on my next machine.
Perhaps some etched glass or acrylic with the Londinium logo and mounted to the existing back panel like some of the vintage machines would be a relatively easy DIY project. Maybe some warm white LED lighting hidden in the frame.
As for the differences between the models, I read the linked L II thread and the part about more body definitely got my interest as I prefer full body over subtle flavours as my taste buds are less precise.
I tried a 3 Group Bosco before buying the L-I and noticed that the shots were a bit more bright in the L-I when I used the same beans I tried in the Bosco.
So, the question is does the architecture of the Group/Boiler configuration handle the water the same as the L-II or L-III????
English is not my first language so I might miss a subtlety here but it sounds a bit harsh, as if one would be buying a machine one knows nothing about from a manufacturer without any reputation.
We know the reputation of LONDINIUM and Fracino are excellent.
I bought the L1 Luxe very early on and haven't had regrets for a second. No tough pills, no swallowing.
If I could take my motorized HG One and my beans to a machine nearby, that could tell me something, but to be sure I'd need them side by side and I would also need the time to get the grind, tamp & pull timing routine optimal (to my taste) on both machines. Not cross-testing the best LI routine on the L1-P and the other way around, but comparing each machine in the best way for it to the other in the best way for it.
If someone described the results subjectively there would probably be a different (but still excellent) mix of mouthfeel, clarity and all those words people use and I couldn't wait to get my hands on one to taste for myself.
I expect it to be very very similar, just a slightly higher pressure pre infusion. And magnificent looks.
If a new Garmin outdoors GPS comes out I will get it to replace my Montana 650t and I know it will be excellent (albeit after the number of firmware updates which is always a welcome reason for the well seasoned customers to grizzle a bit), if the new iPhone comes out in the late fall next year I know I will get it and not be disappointed, when I got the new Canon 5D generation it was obvious it would be different but very good.
LONDINIUM will not produce a piece of crap all of a sudden.
Some brands build that faith and prove again and again it's justified.
I suspect you Frans have tried the L-II or L-III to say that it has "Slightly higher pre infusion" and that is great. You now have the knowledge to sell your L-I Lux knowing that you would be getting something that produces a better espresso experience, but I lack that knowledge and hands on experience.
I never said that Francino or Londinium "would produce a piece of crap", had I thought that I would have sold the L-I a couple of months after receiving it. In fact I like the L-I so much I sold a very expensive LaMarzocco GS/3 MP and kept the L-I, so that must say something what I think of the quality of the products that come out of the Francino facility. Frans, since you have been to the Francino facility have you tried the other espresso machines that they produce, they do make another Lever machine so how does it compare to the L-I?
Brand faith is not something that really applies, and especially comparing Apple to Francino. Did you buy the iPhone 6, the big one and not the little one just because it was made by Apple? In the early 1960's a Ford automobile was not a bad auto but they made the Edsel back then too and the sales fell right into that toilet seat they called a grill so the brand idea flies only just so far.
Bosco has made Lever machines for a long time yet how often do you see the one Group machines? After trying the 3 Group machine I would not hesitate getting the 1 Group since I believe the mechanical workings are the same but I bought the L-I because of it's size. My faith in a company that has been in business more a few years was why I bought the item that Reiss produced HOPING that it would produce as good a shot as the Bosco that I tried, and I was not disappointed.
But selling my L-I to get another one that may or may not be better, just the same in a larger box, then I am not sure. I need to be sold more on the machine and not the brand.
No harshness meant, just a reality check for me.
Okay I understand it better now!
From what I've read I understand that the pre-infusion is line pressure up to 2 bar (if the line pressure is higher, a valve to tune it down to 2 bar is advised) so I assume it would be around 2 bar here. I generally wake up the heating element just before locking in the PF and release the lever as the p-stat clicks off when the pressure in the boiler and thus pre-infusion pressure has reached 1.4 bar in my room. Therefore I assume the pre-infusion pressure will be higher on the L1-P but not dramatically so. The group will be the same, the temp stability was fine and will be not less firm considering the relatively bigger boiler and bigger HX involved. The lever might catch a little earlier I expect and thus the pressure profile might be a little wider but that remains to be seen.
We did play with the huge "bean to cup" robotic machine, after emptying the bean hopper and loading it with fresh LONDINIUM beans, but did not experiment much. I have seen the other machines in production but did not try any.
In Amsterdam there are several places where they have the KvdW multi group levers with the same groups as we have and depending on the place, the beans and the barista they can be gorgeous or less. One place never looks at the p-stat and they get them too hot, they do not care and sell a lot anyway and one other place is among the very best in town, delicious.
Until I find that it's not good anymore, I do indeed, same with the Garmins. I did with the Nokia's long ago until one was a disappointment and I moved on.
I cannot judge them, never used them, never considered buying the huge thing, never found a dealer who would be 1) very close or 2) have superior service like LONDINIUM
Espresso from our L1 is great, I do not expect anything can be "better". But some folks have asked about a grate on the drip tray, some guys wanted to be able to warm cups on top, some (me!) might love the sight glass, the "oomph" of the size... L1-P brings all that and probably more than I can foresee.
Are you running your L-I so that the Pstat shuts off the boiler heating element at 1.4bar? If so what pressure will it turn back on?
I was unaware that Francino made those robotic machines. I saw such a machine for the first time in a Starbucks (didn't buy the espresso) and was amazed to see beans in a hopper to espresso out into a cup (usually paper, ugh!!!) with no hands involved. Now they call the person dispensing it is called a "Barista"? Wow, if there is a Barista Union somewhere they are probably organizing a march/protest :-) It is sort of like calling someone who sells hamburgers in a fast food place a "Chef". Are those robotic machines popular in Europe?
Yes
I am not at home so I will check when I get back.
Here at my girl friend's place I was inspired by this thread to lower the pre-infusion pressure on the Rocket to 2 bar. Now it takes the E61 about 6-7 seconds to reach that 2 bar pressure in the group before I switch over to the other valve which delivers 9 bar to the group. The first result in the cup is very good!
It's Fracino, with just one n ;-)
Frank, the founder of the company and his son Adrian have invested a small fortune in developing their fully automatic programmable bean to cup machine, the Cybercino.
http://www.fracino.com/machines/cybercino.html
They insisted on housing it in a conventional style espresso machine body, so not a high-rise where the beans are on top and from there every movement goes down until it reaches the cup. The hopper is still on top and from there the robotics use the grinder, move to the right and on and also inside is the refrigerated milk if I recall correctly. I made some pictures so will have to see if / where I have these. All variables are programmable and just like on our machines you need the hand and the routine to get it perfect, the big machine also needs to be programmed to keep on track. So you stil need a barista but he/she does not have to be there all the time.
I do not see them much, especially the highly professional ones must be very rare. On the other hand, machines like KvdW makes and the professional Marzocco/Slayer type machines have a lot of programmable gadgets built in too and they do not replace the man/woman but rather allow the programmer / service person to save time and make money. Especially the service technician probably likes to come frequently and tune / replace parts ;-)
Checked my pictures on
http://kostverlorenvaart.nl/temp/koffie/fracino650/
but the machine we're talking about is not in the series. The pictures do show some of the size of the factory, which is housed in a series of buildings on both sides of a road.
BTW, your photos of the factory are very good and that pile of boiler was impressive, which brings to mind another question. Why do some boilers have bolt on end caps and other boilers, like the L-I, do not and the caps are soldered in place?
At the time I took some pictures of their latest machinery which enabled Fracino to produce their own boilers. I was asked to keep those for myself because they were just starting up that innovation in a state of the art segment of the factory buildings and did not want it to be widely known yet ;-)
My hunch: if you anticipate getting into the boiler with tools for servicing later on, then a bolted side is convenient. But if you weld (not solder) it into one piece, you do not need to bother with the bolts and gaskets. On the other hand, if you bolt it on, there's one less welding seam that must be absolutely pressure proof.
These are my personal musings and I may be way off the mark.