Reiss was interested about my thoughts of the 3 grinders I have. A Mahlkoenig K30 Vario, a Compak K10 Fresh and a Versalab M3 (customized by Terranova) So I post it here for anyone who's interested.
There's no winner in ALL aspects, so you need to know what you really want and what not.
MAHLKOENIG K30 VARIO
Do you want quiet grinding? Get it. Motor is quiet. The grinding too.
You can grind a double dose in 4 seconds. This is a high speed flat burr grinder designed to cope with a busy environment. High speed RPM is not going produce the best grind available. This does not mean is bad, just that it's not the best out there. We are talking about high end grinders, so quality is on par.
Grind adjustment is great. Simple, quick and effective. However, this grinder was designed to work with a filled hopper. For single dosing you'll have problems. So if you change beans very very often, I don't recommend it. Coffee retention is about 5-6 grams inside the chamber.
Easy to select dosing time. Simple. 2 memories: one for single and one for double (at last my version). I can't say anything about dose repeatability, I don't remember the tests I did. Sorry.
The grinder is clean to work with. There's no mess. No coffee grinds everywhere. Just on the basket.
It's built like a tank. No cheap parts, no rattle. Lastinq quality components
COMPAK K10 FRESH
Quiet grinding too. A little loud than the K30.
It grinds double shot in 4 seconds. Conical burrs. Low speed (420 rpm). Fantastic grind quality. Shots tastes deeper than the K30 ones. Like an extra layer. It's like when you have a subwoofer in your audio system and you can feel the 30 hz bass. I know Compak sells titanium coated burrs and another more expensive coatings, so taste may be improved.
Inaccurate grind adjustment. The digital display is not very accurate (at least on mine). For example, if you choose setting 40 for one specific bean, and then you change the grind back and forth to adequate another bean, when you coming back to setting 40 perhaps that "40" won't have the exactly burr aperture you had last time. This, perhaps has been corrected as my K10 is an old version. This grinder was designed to work with a filled hopper. For single dosing you'll have problems. So if you change beans very very often, I don't recommend it. Coffee retention between 12-15 grams inside the chamber.
Dosing time easy to select. Memories for single and double, Various shot modes. An extra button to continous grinding.
Clean operation. Just on the basket. No fuss.
Solid built. Lasting quality components. Great.
VERSALAB M3 - #144 CUSTOM BUILT by Terranova.
This is NOT the stock Versalab M3.
Do you want quiet grinding? Do not get it. The grinder is fantastic to wake up the whole family including the dog and the cat with the first 6 AM coffee. The open design of the grinder makes this inevitable.
It grinds a double shot in about 15-20 seconds. Conical & flat titanium coated burrs (yes, 4 burrs inside) which has been flattened on a flat grinding bench and polished. Low speed (420 rpm) but the user can adjust the speed (not straight forward and requires open the grinder). The shaft have an off-axis accuracy of just +-0.02mm. This makes the grind quality outstanding. Same deeper taste as K10 Fresh but somehow more elegant and refined. It’s hard to explain. TDS tests show more extraction of solids than the K30 & K10.
Grind adjustment a la K30. Quick. accurate, repeatability. The grinder was designed to excel in single dosing so you don’t need a full hopper, but if you want it, you can have it too. You can change beans every time you want with no fuss. Coffee retention is about 0.2 grams.
Dose selection is done using bushings. When you push the slider, a bushing is filled with coffee. Depending of the bushing size selected, you can adjust the dose. This is a volumetric method and, while I don’t have any measurements right now, I think is not very very accurate.
The grinder makes some coffee mess. You probably will have some grounds over the table after a few shots. The grind is so fluffy that it creates a tall volcano shape that protrudes over the filter, so is easy to drop some coffee when remove the PF or in the distribution.
Extreme build quality. Minimal electronic parts, only the essential in order to run the motor and control the RPM. Eco-friendly, ~70 watts. A machine for a lifetime.
Thanks for the good write up!! I was particularly interested in the Versalab Modded by Terranova. I have one in the works now and hope to get it by Christmas. We all need Christmas presents even if we have to buy it ourselves
Do you use that PF Holder for the Versalab? I found it to be a real PITA and a big mess so I put a tall loading funnel, either mine or Orphan Espresso aluminum, under the bottom funnel of the Versalab and it catches all, ALL, the grounds in the PF basket. When I get it back I will Post a video.
Thanks again for the write up. I almost bought a K10 Fresh but got a Kony-E instead.
J.J., Did you have the un-modded M3 before having it terranovaed?
I'm also a M3 owner, and, I'm trying the weight the pro's and con's to have it modded. Would you say the mod brings a lot to the M3 taste-wise? is it worth the investment?
Dan Streight post=1014 wrote: Thank you for your informative post J.J.!
Question: Have you tried spritzing ("RDT") the beans with water going in to the Versalab to better control the presumed static mess you get?
Yes. I tried. WIth RDT instead of having 0.2 gram of retention, you have 0
"Problem" is that the cone shape of coffee formed by the M3 is high and at the sides of the basket, so with a little movement some grounds may fall off.
Thanks for the good write up!! I was particularly interested in the Versalab Modded by Terranova. I have one in the works now and hope to get it by Christmas. We all need Christmas presents even if we have to buy it ourselves
Haha, yes. That's for sure. Christmas presents rocks!
Do you use that PF Holder for the Versalab? I found it to be a real PITA and a big mess so I put a tall loading funnel, either mine or Orphan Espresso aluminum, under the bottom funnel of the Versalab and it catches all, ALL, the grounds in the PF basket. When I get it back I will Post a video.
Thanks again for the write up. I almost bought a K10 Fresh but got a Kony-E instead.
Stephen
Yes, I use it. But if you attach a funnel, do you have enough space for the PF? Also, that way you are changing the M3 distribution. You get a cone, right?
I do not use the PF Holder for that specific reason of the big mess. By using the tall funnel under the VL Lower Cone it holds all the grounds.
I generally dose into the basket w/funnel on top and then distribute the grounds and put it into the PF. However it does work with the dosing directly into the PF/basket by using the funnel.
I am looking forward to using the Modded version since I have used the stock VL for a year or two already.
Joanes Grandjean post=1019 wrote: J.J., Did you have the un-modded M3 before having it terranovaed?
I'm also a M3 owner, and, I'm trying the weight the pro's and con's to have it modded. Would you say the mod brings a lot to the M3 taste-wise? is it worth the investment?
Yes, I had it unmodded for a few months.
The decision of mod it was hard. It's not funny pay a lot of cash for a product that it simply just not work right and you need to pay more money to fix it. But my M3 unit needed. I got spritzers when using the bottomless PF and the shots were clearly inferior to the K10 ones (taste-wise). Lack of "bass notes", lack of richness, lack of sweetness. Also I had to grind near the zero point. Always below 2 setting. And sometimes I was unable to grind finer. So, yes, It was worth the investment.
But I think that not all the M3s out there have this problem (main problem is off-axis shaft) so maybe in your case it is not necessary.
My M3 had the same problem of axial deviation and burrs not aligned evenly. I put a dial indicator on the shaft and found .003"+ radial deviation and when the burrs were examined at their touching position only 25%-30% of the burr surfaced touched. There was a clearly visible gap where they were not touching. I put that dial indicator on several places on the M3 and found that it would have been impossible, as it was manufactured, to get proper burr alignment.
My Mazzer Kony-E grinds beautifully, no WDT needed...
1. OE Pharos 2. Baratza Vario 3. Mazzer Major 4. Mazzer Mini 5. Ceado E37s
From that list, I prefer the Ceado E37s. The big 83mm flat burrs do a pretty good job. I almost bought a Compaq K10, but as I liked better the shots from the Mazzer Major compared to the Pharos, I decided to go with the E37S. ( I was worried that I may like the flat burr flavor more than the conical).
I feel lucky I have been able to try this many grinders, wish I may be able to try more in the future.
A Jirau post=1224 wrote: I have used 5 grinders with my L1.
1. OE Pharos 2. Baratza Vario 3. Mazzer Major 4. Mazzer Mini 5. Ceado E37s
From that list, I prefer the Ceado E37s. The big 83mm flat burrs do a pretty good job. I almost bought a Compaq K10, but as I liked better the shots from the Mazzer Major compared to the Pharos, I decided to go with the E37S. ( I was worried that I may like the flat burr flavor more than the conical).
I feel lucky I have been able to try this many grinders, wish I may be able to try more in the future.
The Ceado has 83mm Flat Burrs!?! How is the flavor compared to the Pharos?
Stephen, Yes, the Ceado E37S has 83mm burrs. I think it was a poor choice from them keeping the model number E37 and adding the S as the two grinders are very different due to the burr set (64mm vs 83mm).
Comparing the Ceado to the Pharos, I'm not sure how to explain other than say the Ceado taste better to me (maybe more deep and rounded consistent flavors)
I haven't used the Pharos much, I will bring it out of retirement as I'm on vacation next week and will do a more detailed assessment and report back.
I was totally unaware that the "S" version had a burr size change. I had the first version and liked many things about the grinder but the electronics failed on the first two I received. One after a week and the other right out of the box so I gave up on Ceado. Please keep me informed about the longevity of the Ceado electronics because I liked everything else about the grinder.
You can see the basics of the mythos on the simonelli website, but essentially the motor and burr assembly are mounted at 45 degrees and the exit chute sits directly under the burrs so very little, less than a gram retention on the mythos, it is certainly the best overall flat burr grinder I have ever had and I have had a lot of them...
I had a Mythos, sold it for a K10 Fresh but miss it so much, that I am buying another one as soon as I can find one. They are full of character, very reliable and deliver consistent grinds into the pf
Thanx to Juanjo (J.J.) - here the second L1 + M3 (mod) combination in action. And another K10 for sale
Sure, the K10 is great and the espresso quality is practically the same, but I love the look and the single dosing with the M3 - of course only the modded version of the one and only Terranova
HG1 with the 83mm TiN aftermarket burrs. This is the one I use 100% of the time for espresso. Its beautiful, part of the ritual, zero retention, very low heat generation... Love it! After grinding 25+ pounds of beans (and four arm-breaking pounds of Minute rice) I thinks it's finally broken in. Great quality grind, gind control and flavor... I really do love it.
Baratza Vario - A great grinder but kind of light weight, a bit cheap in the build. I use it for all coffee other that espresso. It does a great job with grind quality
Macap M4, doserless and stepped - A real clunker, super heavy duty. Since it is stepped, each turn has an impact that is too much; all else equal, one click results in about eight seconds impact to the extraction time. This grinder is currently in the basement so I can free up important counter space.
I've just brought back my un-modded versalab M3 next to my L1, and compared it to the Compak doser K10. I'm a big fan of the K10, and I had the M3 with my secondary setup at the office for over a year.
Compared the M3 and K10, and I was surprized, even amazed. The M3 makes sweeter and more balanced shots, although, visually, the pour is less clean than with the K10, with some small channeling, despite efforts on the ground distribution in the basket.
I'm considering giving the M3 a second chance, might get it Terranovated next year, given the nice reviews the modded grinder gets. Maybe I'll wait for Stephen's opinion when his return.
Log onto Home Barista and go to "Grinders" and then to the "Versalab M3" with searches. Terranova is a fellow who rebuilds the Versalab in ways only Versalab can only dream of.
Different bearing set up, tighter tolerances, and then don't forget the cosmetic stuff! WOW! Some of the high tech coatings on the exterior surfaces are easier to clean than brass.... And then he can do the cones out of stainless steel if you wish.
would it be rude to ask how much it will cost you to have yours modded? I can't wait to have your feed back on it. Maybe I'll send it in next year for modding.
Also, for those with the terranova mod, did the extraction quality improved? Even when I grind into a bowl, pour the content into the doser of my K10 and use this to distribute, i still get less than perfect extractions, while with the K10, I get state-of-the-art pours. Yet the M3 get a lot more sweetness out of the coffee, I almost fall in love with it again.
He has so many options that one single cost will not suffice. The biggest thing is making sure the burrs are parallel and no wobble out of the shaft and I am not sure what he charges just for that alone.
I am going for a lot of the cosmetic stuff which is pricey, like the DLC coatings and the TiN coatings and that will take the cost up to close to 1/2 of what the VL cost originally. Big money, but I can't take it with me and I am getting old so I might as well have fun :-) It is safer than buying a high performance sports car at 67 years of age; that thought was crossing my mind while I was in the car dealership yesterday...
Comments
Yes, she made that very clear, no ambiguity about that. She used exactly the same weight of grinds, and measured the exact same TDS.
It wasn't about "is flat or conical better" but "can anyone notice the difference".
Still, just marginally useful, and she said she'd love to do her doctoral thesis about coffee, much more to research scientifically.
I think it's fun how some "truths" told by gurus on some of the older forums have never been really factually checked.
And interesting that coffee is such a simple yet very complicated product. The many ways a bean breaks up in particles...
And the tiny 'sweet spot' in a stepless grinder's setting.
There's no winner in ALL aspects, so you need to know what you really want and what not.
MAHLKOENIG K30 VARIO
Do you want quiet grinding? Get it. Motor is quiet. The grinding too.
You can grind a double dose in 4 seconds. This is a high speed flat burr grinder designed to cope with a busy environment. High speed RPM is not going produce the best grind available. This does not mean is bad, just that it's not the best out there. We are talking about high end grinders, so quality is on par.
Grind adjustment is great. Simple, quick and effective. However, this grinder was designed to work with a filled hopper. For single dosing you'll have problems. So if you change beans very very often, I don't recommend it. Coffee retention is about 5-6 grams inside the chamber.
Easy to select dosing time. Simple. 2 memories: one for single and one for double (at last my version). I can't say anything about dose repeatability, I don't remember the tests I did. Sorry.
The grinder is clean to work with. There's no mess. No coffee grinds everywhere. Just on the basket.
It's built like a tank. No cheap parts, no rattle. Lastinq quality components
COMPAK K10 FRESH
Quiet grinding too. A little loud than the K30.
It grinds double shot in 4 seconds. Conical burrs. Low speed (420 rpm). Fantastic grind quality. Shots tastes deeper than the K30 ones. Like an extra layer. It's like when you have a subwoofer in your audio system and you can feel the 30 hz bass. I know Compak sells titanium coated burrs and another more expensive coatings, so taste may be improved.
Inaccurate grind adjustment. The digital display is not very accurate (at least on mine). For example, if you choose setting 40 for one specific bean, and then you change the grind back and forth to adequate another bean, when you coming back to setting 40 perhaps that "40" won't have the exactly burr aperture you had last time. This, perhaps has been corrected as my K10 is an old version. This grinder was designed to work with a filled hopper. For single dosing you'll have problems. So if you change beans very very often, I don't recommend it. Coffee retention between 12-15 grams inside the chamber.
Dosing time easy to select. Memories for single and double, Various shot modes. An extra button to continous grinding.
Clean operation. Just on the basket. No fuss.
Solid built. Lasting quality components. Great.
VERSALAB M3 - #144 CUSTOM BUILT by Terranova.
This is NOT the stock Versalab M3.
Do you want quiet grinding? Do not get it. The grinder is fantastic to wake up the whole family including the dog and the cat with the first 6 AM coffee. The open design of the grinder makes this inevitable.
It grinds a double shot in about 15-20 seconds. Conical & flat titanium coated burrs (yes, 4 burrs inside) which has been flattened on a flat grinding bench and polished. Low speed (420 rpm) but the user can adjust the speed (not straight forward and requires open the grinder). The shaft have an off-axis accuracy of just +-0.02mm. This makes the grind quality outstanding. Same deeper taste as K10 Fresh but somehow more elegant and refined. It’s hard to explain. TDS tests show more extraction of solids than the K30 & K10.
Grind adjustment a la K30. Quick. accurate, repeatability. The grinder was designed to excel in single dosing so you don’t need a full hopper, but if you want it, you can have it too. You can change beans every time you want with no fuss. Coffee retention is about 0.2 grams.
Dose selection is done using bushings. When you push the slider, a bushing is filled with coffee. Depending of the bushing size selected, you can adjust the dose. This is a volumetric method and, while I don’t have any measurements right now, I think is not very very accurate.
The grinder makes some coffee mess. You probably will have some grounds over the table after a few shots. The grind is so fluffy that it creates a tall volcano shape that protrudes over the filter, so is easy to drop some coffee when remove the PF or in the distribution.
Extreme build quality. Minimal electronic parts, only the essential in order to run the motor and control the RPM. Eco-friendly, ~70 watts. A machine for a lifetime.
Question: Have you tried spritzing ("RDT") the beans with water going in to the Versalab to better control the presumed static mess you get?
Thanks for the good write up!! I was particularly interested in the Versalab Modded by Terranova. I have one in the works now and hope to get it by Christmas. We all need Christmas presents even if we have to buy it ourselves
Do you use that PF Holder for the Versalab? I found it to be a real PITA and a big mess so I put a tall loading funnel, either mine or Orphan Espresso aluminum, under the bottom funnel of the Versalab and it catches all, ALL, the grounds in the PF basket. When I get it back I will Post a video.
Thanks again for the write up. I almost bought a K10 Fresh but got a Kony-E instead.
Stephen
I'm also a M3 owner, and, I'm trying the weight the pro's and con's to have it modded.
Would you say the mod brings a lot to the M3 taste-wise? is it worth the investment?
Yes. I tried. WIth RDT instead of having 0.2 gram of retention, you have 0
"Problem" is that the cone shape of coffee formed by the M3 is high and at the sides of the basket, so with a little movement some grounds may fall off.
Anyway I'm being picky. Coffee is a dirty thing
Haha, yes. That's for sure. Christmas presents rocks!
Yes, I use it. But if you attach a funnel, do you have enough space for the PF? Also, that way you are changing the M3 distribution. You get a cone, right?
I do not use the PF Holder for that specific reason of the big mess. By using the tall funnel under the VL Lower Cone it holds all the grounds.
I generally dose into the basket w/funnel on top and then distribute the grounds and put it into the PF. However it does work with the dosing directly into the PF/basket by using the funnel.
I am looking forward to using the Modded version since I have used the stock VL for a year or two already.
Stephen
Yes, I had it unmodded for a few months.
The decision of mod it was hard. It's not funny pay a lot of cash for a product that it simply just not work right and you need to pay more money to fix it. But my M3 unit needed. I got spritzers when using the bottomless PF and the shots were clearly inferior to the K10 ones (taste-wise). Lack of "bass notes", lack of richness, lack of sweetness. Also I had to grind near the zero point. Always below 2 setting. And sometimes I was unable to grind finer. So, yes, It was worth the investment.
But I think that not all the M3s out there have this problem (main problem is off-axis shaft) so maybe in your case it is not necessary.
My Mazzer Kony-E grinds beautifully, no WDT needed...
Can't wait to get the M3 back on the bench
1. OE Pharos
2. Baratza Vario
3. Mazzer Major
4. Mazzer Mini
5. Ceado E37s
From that list, I prefer the Ceado E37s. The big 83mm flat burrs do a pretty good job. I almost bought a Compaq K10, but as I liked better the shots from the Mazzer Major compared to the Pharos, I decided to go with the E37S. ( I was worried that I may like the flat burr flavor more than the conical).
I feel lucky I have been able to try this many grinders, wish I may be able to try more in the future.
The Ceado has 83mm Flat Burrs!?! How is the flavor compared to the Pharos?
Yes, the Ceado E37S has 83mm burrs. I think it was a poor choice from them keeping the model number E37 and adding the S as the two grinders are very different due to the burr set (64mm vs 83mm).
Comparing the Ceado to the Pharos, I'm not sure how to explain other than say the Ceado taste better to me (maybe more deep and rounded consistent flavors)
I haven't used the Pharos much, I will bring it out of retirement as I'm on vacation next week and will do a more detailed assessment and report back.
I was totally unaware that the "S" version had a burr size change. I had the first version and liked many things about the grinder but the electronics failed on the first two I received. One after a week and the other right out of the box so I gave up on Ceado. Please keep me informed about the longevity of the Ceado electronics because I liked everything else about the grinder.
Sounds like a real nice grinder!
And another K10 for sale
Sure, the K10 is great and the espresso quality is practically the same, but I love the look and the single dosing with the M3 - of course only the modded version of the one and only Terranova
Baratza Vario - A great grinder but kind of light weight, a bit cheap in the build. I use it for all coffee other that espresso. It does a great job with grind quality
Macap M4, doserless and stepped - A real clunker, super heavy duty. Since it is stepped, each turn has an impact that is too much; all else equal, one click results in about eight seconds impact to the extraction time. This grinder is currently in the basement so I can free up important counter space.
I'm a big fan of the K10, and I had the M3 with my secondary setup at the office for over a year.
Compared the M3 and K10, and I was surprized, even amazed. The M3 makes sweeter and more balanced shots, although, visually, the pour is less clean than with the K10, with some small channeling, despite efforts on the ground distribution in the basket.
I'm considering giving the M3 a second chance, might get it Terranovated next year, given the nice reviews the modded grinder gets. Maybe I'll wait for Stephen's opinion when his return.
Different bearing set up, tighter tolerances, and then don't forget the cosmetic stuff! WOW! Some of the high tech coatings on the exterior surfaces are easier to clean than brass.... And then he can do the cones out of stainless steel if you wish.
You must see his work....
Also, for those with the terranova mod, did the extraction quality improved?
Even when I grind into a bowl, pour the content into the doser of my K10 and use this to distribute, i still get less than perfect extractions, while with the K10, I get state-of-the-art pours.
Yet the M3 get a lot more sweetness out of the coffee, I almost fall in love with it again.
I am going for a lot of the cosmetic stuff which is pricey, like the DLC coatings and the TiN coatings and that will take the cost up to close to 1/2 of what the VL cost originally. Big money, but I can't take it with me and I am getting old so I might as well have fun :-) It is safer than buying a high performance sports car at 67 years of age; that thought was crossing my mind while I was in the car dealership yesterday...