So what's it like, i'm starting to think about dabbling in roasting, but cant decide what to get, but do no i want to go more than a popcorn popper etc
maybe we need a thread for best roaster for the L1
UPDATE: I tried to start a Thread about what Roasters we are using for the L-I's bean consumption, if we are not purchasing commercial beans, and could not do it.
The convenience, over my previous Mazzer Mini-e, is substantial. I don't have the 'better half' complaining about the coffee all over the kitchen any more!
The grind quality is also superb, and is easy to adjust and to dial in.
My roommate (fiance) who normally sleeps with ear plugs as she could hear a mouse fart at a 1000 paces when shes sleeping, was very happy with the HG-one. She liked the look of it, and liked the reduction in 5:30am noise even more. Previously used a Mazzer Mini E.
Patrick Bennett post=535 wrote: My roommate (fiance) who normally sleeps with ear plugs as she could hear a mouse fart at a 1000 paces when shes sleeping, was very happy with the HG-one. She liked the look of it, and liked the reduction in 5:30am noise even more.
+1 for my roommate (wife) and about the same time of day!
I have a MACAP M4D. It seems to do the job OK but it is my first grinder at home so I have nothing to compare it to other than the Eureka Mythos that I use at work.
I saw the HG1 threads before I purchased but I didn't want to have to mess around every time weighing beans and individually dosing.
It came down to the Mazzer Mini E or the M4D but the MACAP was slightly cheaper and better looking (in my opinion).
You are all grinder crazy! Or simply have more money than me. The L-I was a bit of a splurge for me, and I felt the cheapest option that would do it justice was the MACAP M4. Mine has a doser with auto on-off, and I manage to deal with that anyway (non-commercial). It was £305
edit: Previously I had doserless rocky grinder / pavoni pro machine, and the MACAP really outperforms the rocky (to say nothing of the L-I vs Pavoni). The rocky had a lot of clumping and was quite slow, so I had to stand there holding the rocker switch and portafilter to fill it. The MACAP has been quite easy to dial in, takes 15 seconds for 18g. I just flip the switch and set the timer, clean the pf while waiting, and shut it off after the 15s. Then dose into a plastic thingy, weigh out exactly 18+0.5 g in another container on a scale, and pour that into the PF. It's a bit more complicated , but for only £305 it's not too much trouble
Actually I find it amazing that people invest almost £2000 in a fabulous espresso machine then neglect to get a commensurate grinder, your espresso is only as good as what you put into the machine, so top quality beans plus a top quality grinder means you get the very best out of a top quality lever machine. I have done side by side comparisons with the l1 using various grinders ranging from a mazzer mini to the k10 fresh and noticed a huge variance in the quality of the shot, generally the cheaper the grinder the pourer the shot quality. I appreciate is a law of finishing returns but investing in a fantastic grinder should be a priority for any serious espresso lover.
Dave Hyde post=566 wrote: Actually I find it amazing that people invest almost £2000 in a fabulous espresso machine then neglect to get a commensurate grinder, your espresso is only as good as what you put into the machine, so top quality beans plus a top quality grinder means you get the very best out of a top quality lever machine. I have done side by side comparisons with the l1 using various grinders ranging from a mazzer mini to the k10 fresh and noticed a huge variance in the quality of the shot, generally the cheaper the grinder the pourer the shot quality. I appreciate is a law of finishing returns but investing in a fantastic grinder should be a priority for any serious espresso lover.
+1, get a good grinder!!!
I went from a Rocky to a Ceado E-37 and was stunned at the difference in the flavors that I could suddenly taste in the cup. The Ceado had crappy electronics so I returned it and got another grinder, the Versalab M3. Flavors continued to be top notch for the flat burr grinder.
When I tried conical grinders I noticed a different flavor present. Not necessarily better but just different. More floral, fruity flavors and not so much chocolate caramel flavors. So that is why flats and conicals on the bench! The Pharos is a great little hand grinder but rather than mess around with redialing in the Versalab for de-cafe when I want de-cafe I just use the Pharos for de-cafe and all is well with the world. I am lazy and it is easier to switch grinders and re-dial.
Totally see the flat burr conical combo, I know it is excessive but having the versatility of a combination of grinders is great, the royal is a flat out great flat burr grinder, haven't come across another flat burr that delivers a better grind consistency, however the eureka mythos has to be my favourite flat burr grinder, due to the electronics and the very low retention. But as has been previously stated the complexity of flavours is different on the k10 And I find that the espresso tastes more complex with a greater mouth feel.
I went from a Mythos which i thought was the dogs danglers, to a K10 Fresh which actually is. It is not about having a flash bit of kit and showing off. Why buy a Porsche then put remoulds on it? To get the best out of your L1. the machine needs to be paired up with something of equal standing. It is capable of pulling stunning shots be it with a Vario, Mine E Electronic or a K10, but the better grinder will produce the better, stunning shot/.....here endeth todays sermon!
I appreciate the input on getting a good grinder. Does anyone have a specific complaint against the MACAP M4 or similar? I would not get a rocky for my L-I, for the reasons I stated earlier.
I'de definitely like a grinder on par with the L1, but having just bought the lever machine means no money left for a new grinder for some time. I could have bought a mid range machine and mid range grinder, but decided to get a machine I won't want to replace and upgrade the grinder at a later date.
The best way to view it is like this. Ane spresso machine is like an oven. It can only bake with the ingrdients you put in. A shot from a macp on an L1 will undoubtedly taste better than a shot on a gaggia Classic prepared with the same grinder. The L1 will help you get the best out of your grinder but it is also capable of getting the best out of top end grinders. stick with your MC4 for now and start saving. There is no point in going from that to one a couple of huyndred pounds dearer. I do not understand the argument, but those who know say that a good lever deamnds a good concial burr as opposed to na flay=t burr. The techie boys can step in here. A K1 10 with a doser is several hundred pounds cheaper than the Fresh, so, set your stall out as per your requirements and do not worry about the kit others may use!
David Kidd post=579 wrote: The best way to view it is like this. Ane spresso machine is like an oven. It can only bake with the ingrdients you put in. A shot from a macp on an L1 will undoubtedly taste better than a shot on a gaggia Classic prepared with the same grinder. The L1 will help you get the best out of your grinder but it is also capable of getting the best out of top end grinders. stick with your MC4 for now and start saving. There is no point in going from that to one a couple of huyndred pounds dearer. I do not understand the argument, but those who know say that a good lever deamnds a good concial burr as opposed to na flay=t burr. The techie boys can step in here. A K1 10 with a doser is several hundred pounds cheaper than the Fresh, so, set your stall out as per your requirements and do not worry about the kit others may use!
There is an enlightening video on YouTube... The recommendation was from a user (garydyke1) on the CoffeeForums forum:
Things are apparently not what they seem.
Anyway, as a comparative "noob" I have accepted the common wisdom and made an effort to ensure that I have a top quality grinder to feed my L1.
As described earlier in this thread, I bought an HG One...
I am extremely happy with it... But the reason for buying was that there was limit to the amount of cash that I was prepared to spend on the complete espresso system, and the HG One employs the 83mm conical burr set that is only available elsewhere in a three-phase Mazzer Robur professional coffee shop grinder.
For £370 ($600) (Plus shipping and government highway robbery), this has to be the bargain of the century compared to the £2000+ for the equivalent Robur...
All you have to do is pretend you are the motor and wind the thing yourself...
You can even make a strange noise whilst doing it!
Although very long, that video was very informative! Thank you
The first time I ground some beans with the HG-One my wife commented from all the way across a large room that the coffee had a nice aroma; she had never commented on grinding coffee before.
The Pharos is indeed a great little grinder, but what a faff, plus if you do the voodoo daddy mods you are straying near to hg1 territory, I guess the Americans among us are lucky as the hg1 comes in quite reasonable over the water. I had the Pharos for a month and found it ground wonderfully, but it is very difficult to change between beans, I ended up dialling it in on a favourite and leaving it just for that bean!
ralf lahno post=583 wrote: Also a good grinder for small money ist OE Pharos. It is not so conformable to use as the HG, but grind is really good. And it is quite cheap.
I may be mistaken, but I think I read or heard somewhere that the Pharos uses the 68mm burr set as used in the K10 and other top grinders... I am sure that someone will put me right.
My only problem with it, is its reputation for being fiddly and difficult to clean, but it must qualify as a bargain regardless of this!
Thanks for that link! I learned from it that there are so many variables, it's very hard to set up a test that gets you significant results. I enjoyed the presentation by the Danish scientist, but for instance she merely acknowledged that there are many differences in grinders with different retention and she decided to just weigh what came out of the grinder, which was then in one grinder more "old" coffee grinds than in another, not significantly divided in flat or conical.
It was also mentioned that it makes a difference how fast a grinder is processing the beans. There, the "slow" HG One or the even slower currently coated HG One burrs make a difference, maybe more so than the burrs being conical.
The HG One does seem to surprise me more often with the smell of coffee than my other grinders do, which is maybe just caused by what happens below the burrs, the ground coffee forming a nice vortex where it rains into the portafilter instead of, in other grinders, a small hole spitting out the grinds in lumps and bits.
I use a Casadio (part of the Cimbali Group) Enea on Demand, with which I've been very pleased. It dispenses single, or double shots at the press of a button, with easy, precise, dose adjustment, via a LCD display, and the micrometer grind adjustment is excellent too.
I once borrowed a Mahlkonig K30 Vario, which I liked, and returned a Home Vario, as I thought that it wasn't up to the mark, and, that, with some roasts it wouldn't grind fine enough.
At one stage I wanted a Titan Conical, and gave serious consideration to the Mazzer Robur, Elektra Nino and the K10 Fresh. I think the grind retention of the Robur is too much in a domestic environment, the Elektra's lack thereof is well known, and internet postings about the K10's were inconclusive. Accordingly I phoned the K10 manufacturers in Spain, to be informed, by a very helpful lady, that it had significant grind retention, which she thought made it unsuitable for home use.
I dearly wanted to buy the Elektra Nino, but was put off by its size and the available, sourcing options in the UK, and worried about warranties.
Accordingly I purchased the Enea on Demand. It's well made, looks good on the worktop, is not too large, and grinds superbly, with very little grind retention (a single dose perhaps), and I've been very pleased with it.
I may buy a HG1 for single dosing, in due course, as I like the odd shot of something different occasionally, but the Enea is a great, all round grinder, for daily use, whether pulling single shots or doubles, or making back to back beverages for family and friends, and I can highly recommend it. Both clarity and mouth-feel are excellent.
Stephen Jenner post=585 wrote: [quote=ralf lahno post=583]Also a good grinder for small money ist OE Pharos. It is not so conformable to use as the HG, but grind is really good. And it is quite cheap.
I may be mistaken, but I think I read or heard somewhere that the Pharos uses the 68mm burr set as used in the K10 and other top grinders... I am sure that someone will put me right.
My only problem with it, is its reputation for being fiddly and difficult to clean, but it must qualify as a bargain regardless of this!
68mm burrs, easy to clean with the voodoodaddy mods and easy to adjust with those mods. You just don't get the aroma in the room with it
Now the Versalab will give you aroma in the room if you grind into a bowl of some sort or leave a gap between the bottom of the dispensing lower cone and the basket funnel.
I get zero retention in my Mazzer Kony-E by using RDT and blowing on the loading tube to clear the grinding chamber. I have tried this method and disassembled the grinder in between after several grinds and found zero retention. Yes, a PITA, but it proved to me that the Mazzer system can indeed produce no retention IF you blow down the single dose loading tube between shots. I saw a Mod somewhere that had the Mazzer fans ducted into the chamber to clear the chute/chamber post grind. Has anyone else seen that one?
Have you seen the lens hopper mod on the mazzers, simply compress the hood after grinding and it blows the chute clean.
The enea is not a bad grinder, I have the dosered version of it, I find that the quality of grind on the bigger burred grinders ( enea is 64 mm I believe) much better, what I like about the enea which is part of the cimbali family is the bean throat, it will happily take 100 grams of beans without a hooper which brings the size down, another grinder that can be had for cheap money second hand is the la cimbali magnum, 75 mm flat burrs and super fluffy even grind I still have one that I use with my little levers.
Dave Hyde post=590 wrote: Have you seen the lens hopper mod on the mazzers, simply compress the hood after grinding and it blows the chute clean.
The enea is not a bad grinder, I have the dosered version of it, I find that the quality of grind on the bigger burred grinders ( enea is 64 mm I believe) much better, what I like about the enea which is part of the cimbali family is the bean throat, it will happily take 100 grams of beans without a hooper which brings the size down, another grinder that can be had for cheap money second hand is the la cimbali magnum, 75 mm flat burrs and super fluffy even grind I still have one that I use with my little levers.
No, I have not seen that Mod. Do you have photos or Links to it?
The Robur and the Kony have a hopper that has a gap between the hopper and the grind setting collar and therefore do not produce a seal. I made a clear acrylic tube that fits the throat perfectly and zero air escapes now. I have several tubes that fit the throat for either single dosing or loading a charge of beans that will last a dinner party.
Neither the Robur or the Kony with their stock burrs produce what I would call fluffy grounds. Now, if you add TiN burrs I suspect it would be a different story! I tried the TiN coated burrs in the HG-One and the grind was noticeably more fluffy. I suspect the Versalab would produce the same fluffy grounds but not sure about the Robur and Kony because of the grinding chamber design.
Dave! Thanks for the video. If you use a bit of RDT then the residual grounds that collect around the exit of the chute will probably fall away. I just get a wee dusting of grounds around the exit of the chute and the inside of the cone.
BTW, I like that plunger you are using. What is it? It seems to get a large volume of air into the small space quickly as opposed to the camera bulb lens cleaner.
Stephen Jenner post=581 wrote: There is an enlightening video on YouTube...
I understand from other forums that this analysis was based on brewed coffee, not espresso. Still interesting, but it's impact is limited in an espresso only context nonetheless.
My take on the whole grinder thing is that for espresso you do get bloody good shots on flat burrs, but the big difference is that that conicals are far more consistent and the effort to 'dial in' new coffees.
Comments
maybe we need a thread for best roaster for the L1
UPDATE: I tried to start a Thread about what Roasters we are using for the L-I's bean consumption, if we are not purchasing commercial beans, and could not do it.
The convenience, over my previous Mazzer Mini-e, is substantial. I don't have the 'better half' complaining about the coffee all over the kitchen any more!
The grind quality is also superb, and is easy to adjust and to dial in.
The shots don't taste too bad either!
+1 for my roommate (wife) and about the same time of day!
I saw the HG1 threads before I purchased but I didn't want to have to mess around every time weighing beans and individually dosing.
It came down to the Mazzer Mini E or the M4D but the MACAP was slightly cheaper and better looking (in my opinion).
edit: Previously I had doserless rocky grinder / pavoni pro machine, and the MACAP really outperforms the rocky (to say nothing of the L-I vs Pavoni). The rocky had a lot of clumping and was quite slow, so I had to stand there holding the rocker switch and portafilter to fill it. The MACAP has been quite easy to dial in, takes 15 seconds for 18g. I just flip the switch and set the timer, clean the pf while waiting, and shut it off after the 15s. Then dose into a plastic thingy, weigh out exactly 18+0.5 g in another container on a scale, and pour that into the PF. It's a bit more complicated , but for only £305 it's not too much trouble
+1, get a good grinder!!!
I went from a Rocky to a Ceado E-37 and was stunned at the difference in the flavors that I could suddenly taste in the cup. The Ceado had crappy electronics so I returned it and got another grinder, the Versalab M3. Flavors continued to be top notch for the flat burr grinder.
When I tried conical grinders I noticed a different flavor present. Not necessarily better but just different. More floral, fruity flavors and not so much chocolate caramel flavors. So that is why flats and conicals on the bench! The Pharos is a great little hand grinder but rather than mess around with redialing in the Versalab for de-cafe when I want de-cafe I just use the Pharos for de-cafe and all is well with the world. I am lazy and it is easier to switch grinders and re-dial.
stick with your MC4 for now and start saving. There is no point in going from that to one a couple of huyndred pounds dearer. I do not understand the argument, but those who know say that a good lever deamnds a good concial burr as opposed to na flay=t burr. The techie boys can step in here. A K1 10 with a doser is several hundred pounds cheaper than the Fresh, so, set your stall out as per your requirements and do not worry about the kit others may use!
There is an enlightening video on YouTube... The recommendation was from a user (garydyke1) on the CoffeeForums forum:
Things are apparently not what they seem.
Anyway, as a comparative "noob" I have accepted the common wisdom and made an effort to ensure that I have a top quality grinder to feed my L1.
As described earlier in this thread, I bought an HG One...
I am extremely happy with it... But the reason for buying was that there was limit to the amount of cash that I was prepared to spend on the complete espresso system, and the HG One employs the 83mm conical burr set that is only available elsewhere in a three-phase Mazzer Robur professional coffee shop grinder.
For £370 ($600) (Plus shipping and government highway robbery), this has to be the bargain of the century compared to the £2000+ for the equivalent Robur...
All you have to do is pretend you are the motor and wind the thing yourself...
You can even make a strange noise whilst doing it!
Apparently the K10 is better... Oh well!
The first time I ground some beans with the HG-One my wife commented from all the way across a large room that the coffee had a nice aroma; she had never commented on grinding coffee before.
Excellent video.
And it is quite cheap.
I may be mistaken, but I think I read or heard somewhere that the Pharos uses the 68mm burr set as used in the K10 and other top grinders... I am sure that someone will put me right.
My only problem with it, is its reputation for being fiddly and difficult to clean, but it must qualify as a bargain regardless of this!
Thanks for that link! I learned from it that there are so many variables, it's very hard to set up a test that gets you significant results. I enjoyed the presentation by the Danish scientist, but for instance she merely acknowledged that there are many differences in grinders with different retention and she decided to just weigh what came out of the grinder, which was then in one grinder more "old" coffee grinds than in another, not significantly divided in flat or conical.
It was also mentioned that it makes a difference how fast a grinder is processing the beans. There, the "slow" HG One or the even slower currently coated HG One burrs make a difference, maybe more so than the burrs being conical.
The HG One does seem to surprise me more often with the smell of coffee than my other grinders do, which is maybe just caused by what happens below the burrs, the ground coffee forming a nice vortex where it rains into the portafilter instead of, in other grinders, a small hole spitting out the grinds in lumps and bits.
I once borrowed a Mahlkonig K30 Vario, which I liked, and returned a Home Vario, as I thought that it wasn't up to the mark, and, that, with some roasts it wouldn't grind fine enough.
At one stage I wanted a Titan Conical, and gave serious consideration to the Mazzer Robur, Elektra Nino and the K10 Fresh. I think the grind retention of the Robur is too much in a domestic environment, the Elektra's lack thereof is well known, and internet postings about the K10's were inconclusive. Accordingly I phoned the K10 manufacturers in Spain, to be informed, by a very helpful lady, that it had significant grind retention, which she thought made it unsuitable for home use.
I dearly wanted to buy the Elektra Nino, but was put off by its size and the available, sourcing options in the UK, and worried about warranties.
Accordingly I purchased the Enea on Demand. It's well made, looks good on the worktop, is not too large, and grinds superbly, with very little grind retention (a single dose perhaps), and I've been very pleased with it.
I may buy a HG1 for single dosing, in due course, as I like the odd shot of something different occasionally, but the Enea is a great, all round grinder, for daily use, whether pulling single shots or doubles, or making back to back beverages for family and friends, and I can highly recommend it. Both clarity and mouth-feel are excellent.
Attached files
I may be mistaken, but I think I read or heard somewhere that the Pharos uses the 68mm burr set as used in the K10 and other top grinders... I am sure that someone will put me right.
My only problem with it, is its reputation for being fiddly and difficult to clean, but it must qualify as a bargain regardless of this!
68mm burrs, easy to clean with the voodoodaddy mods and easy to adjust with those mods. You just don't get the aroma in the room with it
Now the Versalab will give you aroma in the room if you grind into a bowl of some sort or leave a gap between the bottom of the dispensing lower cone and the basket funnel.
I get zero retention in my Mazzer Kony-E by using RDT and blowing on the loading tube to clear the grinding chamber. I have tried this method and disassembled the grinder in between after several grinds and found zero retention. Yes, a PITA, but it proved to me that the Mazzer system can indeed produce no retention IF you blow down the single dose loading tube between shots. I saw a Mod somewhere that had the Mazzer fans ducted into the chamber to clear the chute/chamber post grind. Has anyone else seen that one?
All real interesting stuff.
The enea is not a bad grinder, I have the dosered version of it, I find that the quality of grind on the bigger burred grinders ( enea is 64 mm I believe) much better, what I like about the enea which is part of the cimbali family is the bean throat, it will happily take 100 grams of beans without a hooper which brings the size down, another grinder that can be had for cheap money second hand is the la cimbali magnum, 75 mm flat burrs and super fluffy even grind I still have one that I use with my little levers.
No, I have not seen that Mod. Do you have photos or Links to it?
The Robur and the Kony have a hopper that has a gap between the hopper and the grind setting collar and therefore do not produce a seal. I made a clear acrylic tube that fits the throat perfectly and zero air escapes now. I have several tubes that fit the throat for either single dosing or loading a charge of beans that will last a dinner party.
Neither the Robur or the Kony with their stock burrs produce what I would call fluffy grounds. Now, if you add TiN burrs I suspect it would be a different story! I tried the TiN coated burrs in the HG-One and the grind was noticeably more fluffy. I suspect the Versalab would produce the same fluffy grounds but not sure about the Robur and Kony because of the grinding chamber design.
BTW, I like that plunger you are using. What is it? It seems to get a large volume of air into the small space quickly as opposed to the camera bulb lens cleaner.
S.
I understand from other forums that this analysis was based on brewed coffee, not espresso. Still interesting, but it's impact is limited in an espresso only context nonetheless.
My take on the whole grinder thing is that for espresso you do get bloody good shots on flat burrs, but the big difference is that that conicals are far more consistent and the effort to 'dial in' new coffees.