I think he means that he is adjusting the temperature by adjusting the boiler pressure and the PI pressure by the second pressurestat (secondary pressure regulator).
Kelsey, try grinding finer and do a long pre infusion.
I usually use a 15-15.5g dose in a VST 15g basket and I adjust the grind so when I'm pre infusing I see the first drops form on the bottom of the basket after 10 seconds.
I am releasing the lever after seing few drops in the cup (usually about 15 seconds) and I pull the cup when the lever reaches 12 o'clock.
Definitely Kifr, and on a day to day basis that's exactly what I'll do. I still had the machine open from removing the clip and pulling the film off, so I thought I'd fire her up and see how she was set at default. I know I prefer things smack on one bar, and the pstat was a bit over so I thought I'd adjust it and the secondary regulator to what I think will be my baseline.
We've also had a heatwave here where it's been hitting above 40 degrees Celsius daily.
But day to day, I hope to not open her up very often.
Dan, I don't recommend going after the secondary regulator unless you have a good reason to do so. It's a fiddly operation, tho simple once you see how. Not worth it unless you feel something is egregiously wrong - in which case consult Reiss before hand!!
Kelsey, I guess my question was also wanting to understand what those adjustments are intended to do? i.e what were you seeking to refine?
if you lower the p stat to 1 bar, doesn't that cancel the advantage of the L-R pre-infusing at the stronger pressure vs the thermosyphon design of the original L1?
Dan Tochterman post=12871 wrote: if you lower the p stat to 1 bar, doesn't that cancel the advantage of the L-R pre-infusing at the stronger pressure vs the thermosyphon design of the original L1?
The big Sirai pressostat controls the boiler pressure and thereby the boiler temperature, also influencing the group temperature. It does not affect pre-infusion pressure as it did in the older machine.
Pre-infusion pressure is set by the smaller Ceme pressostat. Raising that pressure can get more "body" and lowering it can get a "softer" taste profile.
It's probably best to first keep it all as it is and then later when you are completely familiar with the machine take it a step further. Opening all doors and pulling all strings at the opening of the play can make the plot hard to follow ;-)
First of all I suggest to consult with Reiss on how to do it.
From my point of view it's a very similar process to the old L1, you connect the water line instead of the pump output braided hose and disconnect the pump electrical wires. The pump output connection is a 1/8" so you connect your water line with the 3/8 to 1/8 adapter.
The tank low water alarm should be disabled by the bypass wire.
What I did in addition is to tune the pre infusion pressurestat to ~4 bars so it will keep the HX solenoid *always* open and water can move freely into the group being pushed only by the line pressure.
My water pressure is limited with a pressure regulator to ~2.5 bars, I can fine tune it if i want without using the pre infusion pressurestat.
This way I've also eliminated the solenoid clicks when I pull the lever since 4 bars is never reached so the pressurestat keeps the solenoid open all the time.
I've removed the pump to make some room inside, 4 screws and it's out.
The water tank remains inside, I've replaced the top panel so you can't see it.
BTW the expansion valve of the TS has a silicone tube going into the water tank. I've connected mine directly to the drain by extending the silicone tube, if you won't do that bare in mind that few drops of water will go into the water tank so eventually after a month or so you will have to empty it.
Is anyone able to explain the perceived increase in body with higher pressure pre-infusion? If I pull a shot with 1.3 bar pre-infusion versus a shot with 3 bar pre-infusion, both identical in recipe and both measure the same TDS then surely the body is the same?
Is it more the case that it is easier to extract more with the higher pressure pre-infusion?
The only explanation I have is purely unscientific but I've owned a first version L1 and also a L1-P.
When you pre infuse with more pressure you can squeeze more water inside the group. The coffee also absorb more water resulting in drops in your coffee cup just after few seconds.
But as you squeeze more water inside the group the lever grabs at almost horizontal spot so basically you extracting your shot with the spring fully compressed.
This way the pressure profile of the shot (and even the shot peak temperature) is different.
The best analogy I can think of is comparing shots on a pump machine: 6.5 - 7 bars vs 8.5 - 9 bars - you will taste different notes and the 9 bar shot will feel heavier in terms of body and mouthfeel.
and if you put a double spring in as so many have suggested you end up with a nasty mousetrap like device that women will never touch and it makes flat, dead espresso with body that tastes just like that you get from a pump machine
by increasing the pre-infusion pressure above boiler pressure but leaving the spring the same you get body without losing any of the highly nuanced taste that lever espresso machines are famous for
additionally, running the thermosiphon at a higher pressure makes it more efficient, so it keeps the group hotter despite the fact that it is now cold fed rather than hot fed (the increased pressure in the TS circuit more than compensates for the cold feed), which is why i have turned the boiler down from 1.3-1.4 bar on the L1(2016) to 1.0 bar
finally, pre-infusing at boiler pressure is incompatible with doses greater than 18g in my experience, so the LR gives you the opportunity to use 20g and 22g baskets, should you wish to do so
at the same time the pre-infusion pressure can be dialled back to 1.4-1.5 bar and you have the characteristics of the L1(2016) back in an instant. the best of both worlds. oh, and i almost forgot, that pump.
see the pressure hose connecting the outlet side of the pump to the bottom of the manifold? remove that hose off the bottom of the manifold and connect the brass adaptor in the kit there to bring you up to 3/8"BSP and then you can connect the long pressure hose provided in the kit
i dont have the bits for the waste pipe with me but i might have a photo - give me some time to look
so obviously the stainless steel circlip shown in the image above is just sitting there - it needs to be pushed down hard on the nylon spigot to secure the funnel to the bracket
we are in the process of rewriting the manual as i want to lift it up to the level of a professional document
about 4 days into playing around with the L-R and a couple of questions coming from a previous L1 owner....
Shower Screen I switched the stock screen to the the 35uM precision screen. With the L1, the advice with using this screen was to bring the lever down more slowly, especially at the point that water enters the group. Same advice with the L-R? I noticed if I go too slowly when pulling the lever down, the water pump starts to pulse.
Tamping With the L1, I was tamping very light so that pre-infusion would sufficiently get to all of the coffee bed without interruption at the lower bar pressure. Should I still apply the same logic with the L-R or tamp slightly harder?
And I am absolutly excited of the machine. I owned a L1 series 1 for a long time and thought, it couldn't be better. It can.
The controlled pre infusion gives so much new opportunities. No problem to dose over 20 gr. More body of the coffee is one result, or just more volume of the shot. So much possibilities to play with, wow !
My machine is plumbed in, for me very important. I don't know why, but it is so quiet I couldn't believe.
I can't even hear when the boiler is filled up. I only can see it on the light. This machine is magic.
I had a lot of machines in the past time, E61, LM GS/3 and speedster. For me personal, there is no machine on the market I would prefer to the L-R.
Thanks to Reiss for this really wonderful machine !
well yes, you are correct, but bear in mind that the LONDINIUM R is designed as a tank fed machine; in plumbing it in you are retarding the need for some of its features like the pump and indeed the secondary pressure switch
Machine arrived last Wednesday but jet-lag other unfortunate circumstances have meant that it has not yet been used. Coffee making hopefully starts tomorrow. It's nine weeks since I sold my L1 (2016) and I haven't had hands on since. I hope I can remember what the devil to do.
Comments
can you elaborate? I think i had read about this in another post, but can't find it anymore and forgot what this was about?
Kelsey, try grinding finer and do a long pre infusion.
I usually use a 15-15.5g dose in a VST 15g basket and I adjust the grind so when I'm pre infusing I see the first drops form on the bottom of the basket after 10 seconds.
I am releasing the lever after seing few drops in the cup (usually about 15 seconds) and I pull the cup when the lever reaches 12 o'clock.
I find this routine produce great flavors.
Enjoy your new machine.
Kfir.
We've also had a heatwave here where it's been hitting above 40 degrees Celsius daily.
But day to day, I hope to not open her up very often.
Dan, I don't recommend going after the secondary regulator unless you have a good reason to do so. It's a fiddly operation, tho simple once you see how. Not worth it unless you feel something is egregiously wrong - in which case consult Reiss before hand!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
if you lower the p stat to 1 bar, doesn't that cancel the advantage of the L-R pre-infusing at the stronger pressure vs the thermosyphon design of the original L1?
The big Sirai pressostat controls the boiler pressure and thereby the boiler temperature, also influencing the group temperature. It does not affect pre-infusion pressure as it did in the older machine.
Pre-infusion pressure is set by the smaller Ceme pressostat. Raising that pressure can get more "body" and lowering it can get a "softer" taste profile.
It's probably best to first keep it all as it is and then later when you are completely familiar with the machine take it a step further. Opening all doors and pulling all strings at the opening of the play can make the plot hard to follow ;-)
Longer PI = finer grind.
You can play with this and also change the shot temp a bit, longer PI will probably cool the brew water a bit since it stays in the group longer.
This video is a shot of 15.5g (In a 15g ridged VST basket) Ethiopian Yirgacheffe medium roasted, 4 days post roast.
15 seconds pre infusion, 30 seconds extraction.
My grinder is a Macap M7K.
Love this machine...
Kfir.
What have I to do if I want the pump completely out of the water way ?
Can I just remove the pump and connect the water to the boiler, or what else should I do.
In my old L1 it water connected to the solenoid. But I don't know what is the solenoid in my new L-R
Thank you very much
ralf
From my point of view it's a very similar process to the old L1, you connect the water line instead of the pump output braided hose and disconnect the pump electrical wires.
The pump output connection is a 1/8" so you connect your water line with the 3/8 to 1/8 adapter.
The tank low water alarm should be disabled by the bypass wire.
What I did in addition is to tune the pre infusion pressurestat to ~4 bars so it will keep the HX solenoid *always* open and water can move freely into the group being pushed only by the line pressure.
My water pressure is limited with a pressure regulator to ~2.5 bars, I can fine tune it if i want without using the pre infusion pressurestat.
This way I've also eliminated the solenoid clicks when I pull the lever since 4 bars is never reached so the pressurestat keeps the solenoid open all the time.
Kfir.
If your machine is open in the next time,could you take a picture for me ?
Have you left pump and water reservoir in the machine ?
I've removed the pump to make some room inside, 4 screws and it's out.
The water tank remains inside, I've replaced the top panel so you can't see it.
BTW the expansion valve of the TS has a silicone tube going into the water tank.
I've connected mine directly to the drain by extending the silicone tube, if you won't do that bare in mind that few drops of water will go into the water tank so eventually after a month or so you will have to empty it.
Kfir.
Is it more the case that it is easier to extract more with the higher pressure pre-infusion?
When you pre infuse with more pressure you can squeeze more water inside the group.
The coffee also absorb more water resulting in drops in your coffee cup just after few seconds.
But as you squeeze more water inside the group the lever grabs at almost horizontal spot so basically you extracting your shot with the spring fully compressed.
This way the pressure profile of the shot (and even the shot peak temperature) is different.
The best analogy I can think of is comparing shots on a pump machine: 6.5 - 7 bars vs 8.5 - 9 bars - you will taste different notes and the 9 bar shot will feel heavier in terms of body and mouthfeel.
Hope this helps to sort things a bit...
Kfir.
by increasing the pre-infusion pressure above boiler pressure but leaving the spring the same you get body without losing any of the highly nuanced taste that lever espresso machines are famous for
additionally, running the thermosiphon at a higher pressure makes it more efficient, so it keeps the group hotter despite the fact that it is now cold fed rather than hot fed (the increased pressure in the TS circuit more than compensates for the cold feed), which is why i have turned the boiler down from 1.3-1.4 bar on the L1(2016) to 1.0 bar
finally, pre-infusing at boiler pressure is incompatible with doses greater than 18g in my experience, so the LR gives you the opportunity to use 20g and 22g baskets, should you wish to do so
at the same time the pre-infusion pressure can be dialled back to 1.4-1.5 bar and you have the characteristics of the L1(2016) back in an instant. the best of both worlds. oh, and i almost forgot, that pump.
Can anybody mark the place in the photo where I could connect to main water supply
und remove the pump ?
I also don't know how to fix the plastic waste funnel under the drip tray. Has anybody a photo where I can see how to do this ?
Thank you very much and sorry for my stupidity !!
ralf
Attached files
see the pressure hose connecting the outlet side of the pump to the bottom of the manifold? remove that hose off the bottom of the manifold and connect the brass adaptor in the kit there to bring you up to 3/8"BSP and then you can connect the long pressure hose provided in the kit
i dont have the bits for the waste pipe with me but i might have a photo - give me some time to look
alternatively someone else will I'm sure
reiss.
so obviously the stainless steel circlip shown in the image above is just sitting there - it needs to be pushed down hard on the nylon spigot to secure the funnel to the bracket
we are in the process of rewriting the manual as i want to lift it up to the level of a professional document
Shower Screen
I switched the stock screen to the the 35uM precision screen. With the L1, the advice with using this screen was to bring the lever down more slowly, especially at the point that water enters the group. Same advice with the L-R? I noticed if I go too slowly when pulling the lever down, the water pump starts to pulse.
Tamping
With the L1, I was tamping very light so that pre-infusion would sufficiently get to all of the coffee bed without interruption at the lower bar pressure. Should I still apply the same logic with the L-R or tamp slightly harder?
thanks all for the input!
I always do it in one gentle motion, but not extremely slow. Just don't shake / tremble / fluctuate.
With the higher pre-infusion pressure of the L-R you may want to grind a little finer and tamp a fraction more firm. The flow will tell you.
https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/blog/3140/londinium-r-in-action
yes, assuming you have left the pre-infusion at the factory 3 bar then you can tamp more firmly
how are you getting on with yours?
reiss.
and Frans, thank you always for your quick and helpful responses!
love this forum!
And I am absolutly excited of the machine.
I owned a L1 series 1 for a long time and thought, it couldn't be better. It can.
The controlled pre infusion gives so much new opportunities. No problem to dose over 20 gr.
More body of the coffee is one result, or just more volume of the shot.
So much possibilities to play with, wow !
My machine is plumbed in, for me very important. I don't know why, but it is so quiet I couldn't believe.
I can't even hear when the boiler is filled up. I only can see it on the light. This machine is magic.
I had a lot of machines in the past time, E61, LM GS/3 and speedster. For me personal, there is no machine on
the market I would prefer to the L-R.
Thanks to Reiss for this really wonderful machine !
It seems, it has no function in a plumbed in machine.
Pre infusion pressure depends only on the reducer of the water pressure.
Is this right ?
Thanks to all,
ralf
well yes, you are correct, but bear in mind that the LONDINIUM R is designed as a tank fed machine; in plumbing it in you are retarding the need for some of its features like the pump and indeed the secondary pressure switch
kind regards
reiss.
thanks for information. It is no problem for me, but interesting to know.
In germany we would say " Big tennis " about this machine.
Thanks a lot
ralf
Machine arrived last Wednesday but jet-lag other unfortunate circumstances have meant that it has not yet been used.
Coffee making hopefully starts tomorrow.
It's nine weeks since I sold my L1 (2016) and I haven't had hands on since. I hope I can remember what the devil to do.