dave advocates using a camera lens cap as a bellows for single dosing to blow the retention clear and achieves very low retention with that method - 2g or something of that order from memory
i don't use my E10 that way - i have the full size hopper (as the optional short hoppers are expensive i think for a plastic can)
then i put in 500g of beans typically and off we go
using this approach my 'feeling' is the retention is more than 10g, but less than 18g
but as i have written previously, i think due to the way in which grounds are displaced from grinders it isn't a binary function
i.e. there isn't a clear line where all the old grounds cease
instead the old grounds are pushed out as a long taper - the better the grinder the shorter this 'taper' period is
so i think the E10 clears the old grounds much more quickly than the K10 fresh, but unless you are going to single dose and blow clear each time you will still have this taper to transition across from stale grounds to fresh
if i dump the first 10g out (which you can program one of the 3 memory buttons to do) the next 18g gives me an acceptable espresso, but the 18g after that is noticeably better, no denying that
dave advocates using a camera lens cap as a bellows for single dosing to blow the retention clear and achieves very low retention with that method - 2g or something of that order from memory
i don't use my E10 that way - i have the full size hopper (as the optional short hoppers are expensive i think for a plastic can)
then i put in 500g of beans typically and off we go
using this approach my 'feeling' is the retention is more than 10g, but less than 18g
but as i have written previously, i think due to the way in which grounds are displaced from grinders it isn't a binary function
i.e. there isn't a clear line where all the old grounds cease
instead the old grounds are pushed out as a long taper - the better the grinder the shorter this 'taper' period is
so i think the E10 clears the old grounds much more quickly than the K10 fresh, but unless you are going to single dose and blow clear each time you will still have this taper to transition across from stale grounds to fresh
if i dump the first 10g out (which you can program one of the 3 memory buttons to do) the next 18g gives me an acceptable espresso, but the 18g after that is noticeably better, no denying that
I concur entirely with Reiss on the use of the E10.
As you can see from previous posts in this thread, I have tried the "Lens Hood" and the "flush" is not entirely complete. Dumping the first 10gm after a 12-15 hour rest removes most but not all stale grinds. The first dose runs a little quicker and is acceptable but subsequent doses are the best.
My greatest concern with single dosing is the way ANY grinder behaves when there is no continuing pressure of bean on the burrs. The ideal burr set would be one where the mean variation of the size of grind is minimal and thus having an even distribution and flow during extraction. The more fines a grinder produces, the more likely water will create paths of less resistance and we get "micro" or "full on" channelling within the puck affecting the result.
My view after having the HG1 and experimenting with the E10 is that single dosing has its problems and much of it relates to the creation of more fines and wider variation of grind size. High capacity grinders reduce the beans to grinds of the required size and expel them.
While on the subject of grind size, I think the HG1 has a real design flaw because the lower burr is at the end of a 15mm shaft supported some 100mm+ away by two bearings less than 80mm apart. I moved my HG1 on before doing any measurement on the shaft runout when grinding but I suspect its not insignificant and thus creates more variation in grind size. Perhaps someone with a HG1 and a metal lathe tool could measure the runout during grinding, particularly at various stages of the dose as the burrs are pushed by the beans from side to side. There may be existing runout in the shaft to start with and grinding makes it worst as the shaft is not well supported. The type of bean, its roast and therefore hardness could play a part in the amount of runout during grinding. The design would perform better if a bearing supporting the inner burr was located closer to the burr set. I appreciate form but not when function could be comprised.
I wish one of the Forum members would buy an E8 OD and report on it :cheer:
i'll have one within the next month i expect. This time in polished aluminium
David Hyde on this forum has had an E8 for quite a while - send him a PM
Reviving this thread since I'm in the market for a new grinder, and trying to evaluate the differences between the E10 and E8. Yes, I understand the obvious mechanical differences, but more to the point the differences in the cup. Reiss, have you been able to compare the two?
I wish one of the Forum members would buy an E8 OD and report on it :cheer:
i'll have one within the next month i expect. This time in polished aluminium
David Hyde on this forum has had an E8 for quite a while - send him a PM
Reviving this thread since I'm in the market for a new grinder, and trying to evaluate the differences between the E10 and E8. Yes, I understand the obvious mechanical differences, but more to the point the differences in the cup. Reiss, have you been able to compare the two?
Thanks for any and all information!
Salvatore,
One factor I did not take into account -- largely because it is not listed on any product specifications -- is that the E10's fan remains consistently ON while the machine is on. I believe this is because the e10 was designed for high volume commercial environments where there is continuous dosing/grinding and fans are needed to maintain constant internal temperature.
I should note that this is not "necessarily" a problem. I'll explain.
I can easily switch the machine off on the bottom knob which allows for 3 options:
A.) 'OFF' B.) 'ON' with touch screen interface and PF click button set to 1,2,3 preset/programmable times. C.) 'MANUAL' where the motor begins as soon as it is switched to manual and there is no touch or screen power/illumination and no PF click availability, and to turn off you must switch the knob to off.
I turn the machine on at the beginning of a session, dose as needed, drink (repeat as needed), clean up, and shut off grinder and L1. The fan is no issue.
If, however, I am the type of person that insists on keeping the grinder on and ready to go at any moment without flipping the ON button, then this would be a problem.
I supposed if I were using it in a cafe setting, I would have to contend with the added (but not bothersome) noise of the fan constantly running, or have my baristas trained to always flip the switch -- which would be either bothersome or near impossible to enforce.
Currently, I am without my L1 while in transition to the L1-P and moving houses, etc. Therefore, I have relegated my caffeine to the low post of the hario drip stand. SO, for single dosing for drip application, I dump all the beans in and switch it to MANUAL until the burrs run out of beans to grind. This saves me a few seconds versus using the ON with touch screen since I do not have to wait the 5 seconds for the touch screen to initialize/calibrate and turn on, instead the manual switch is instantaneous.
On the topic of grind retention... I have been consistently measuring the grind retention daily (anal, I know) as I get to know this grinder. I dump in 28g beans, turn to manual, let the burs expel the total amount of grinds and then weight. I then jiggle, tilt, and spank the back of the grinder for about 45 seconds to get any remaining particles out (no, I don't propose this is a scientifically perfect method). The most that has been in the bur chamber has been 3g. Usually it is closer to 1 or 1.5g. I suspect there is an additional 0.7-1.3 grams left stuck (static) on the inside that would be measurable only if the burs were totally cleaned out and disassembled. I DID do this once and it was about .8g that was left in the bur chamber after a thorough spanking of the grinder's base.
I also highly recommend: 1. applying loxeal (new owners received from Reiss) around the burr size adjustment threading. My threading came bone dry, leading to a very scratchy sound and rough feel when changing grind size. 2. verifying that the safety pin is in place (which prevents the burs from touching or going past the finest setting and grinding on one another). My safety pin was just floating and the rubber bushing was left loose in the bur chamber! Could have been ugly if I didn't inspect before use. Must have been a busy day at the factory when this one was assembled. 3. When doing #2 above, you may as well fully disassemble upon receipt and perform an inspection of the burs. YMMV, but I know mine were a bit oily and dirty from the factory, so a simple rub on a kitchen towel cleaned them up.
All are welcome to PM me if they have any more questions, or post here.
Thank you very much. This is great information. Does anyone know if the fan on the E8 operates in the same fashion? If it merely takes a few seconds from power-up to grind, I don't see this being much of a problem. To be honest, I prefer to let any and all electronic devices run as much as possible, but sometimes this isn't feasible.
Thank you very much. This is great information. Does anyone know if the fan on the E8 operates in the same fashion? If it merely takes a few seconds from power-up to grind, I don't see this being much of a problem. To be honest, I prefer to let any and all electronic devices run as much as possible, but sometimes this isn't feasible.
The E8 does not have a continuous fan when on. Reiss will confirm. On the other hand, the specs show the e8 to be much louder than the e8, if this is of concern. I need to be able to sneak out in the wee morning without waking the whole family.
please do go to the Compak.es website for specifications, and also some helpful videos
the E10 has a fan which is always on, which is tiresome in a domestic environment, but then it is designed for a commercial environment where you would never hear the fan noise
when i have the E8 and the E10 side by side the E8 seems unrefined in comparison with the E10, but it is easy to lose perspective in these matters
the E10 is turning slowly, because of course it is a conical burr, and so it is quiet and refined with more of a low down rumble of something big and heavy operating in a relatively stress-free manner
the E8 is a flat burr and so it turns at about 1400rpm because basically all flat burrs have to in order for the beans to feed into the burrs properly, so it emits more of a high pitched banshee noise, relative to the E10
the E10 will throw out a given mass of coffee of the same particle size faster than the E8, but that doesnt mean the E8 is slow
in my experience a flat burr grinder of equal quality to a conical burr is better for light roasts, and the equivalent conical is better for darker roasts. i don't have anything scientific to base that on, but that is my view based on my experience to date
given that we are now focused on single origin/estate/microlot coffees, which invariably means light roasts, i feel that the E8 is a better grinder for LONDINIUM to advocate
the E10 also has noticeably greater retention than the E8, as in perhaps 20g compared with 10g - again this is a feature of conicals relative to flat burrs - its just a difference that you have to accept
the E10 is definitely built to do more heavy duty work, and there is evidence of this in things like the heavy duty on/off switch and of course the electronic fan that is not present on the E8 (the E8 has a fan mounted on the end of the motor shaft only that turns one for one with the motor)
if you were opening a busy cafe i would definitely steer you toward the E10 over the E8, but most of us here are home users. lets also not lose sight of the fact that the E8 is a veritable bargain (the E6 is a much lesser grinder, yet it is only slightly less expensive than the E8 so we have no interest in offering it)
for this reason the Compak E8 is the grinder we are going to push. regrettably we are going to cease offering the K3 as we have decided it is not up to the task of adequately showing off what our machines are capable of. this is a pity as we don't want to pitch ourselves as being too exclusive, but as always, there is a need for balance and focus. accordingly we now advocate the Compak E8 as our recommended grinder for our machines, or if circumstances demand the ultimate, the Compak R120
whatever you do, don't make the mistake of going for the K10 Fresh or K8 Fresh. as previously posted in some detail these grinders have a number of well intended features that do not work well in practice (worm gear adjustment anyone? electronic counter (0-100) on worm gear to try and track grind setting - worse than useless!), and simply result in a grinder that is unnecessarily complex and expensive: avoid.
Thank you for such a detailed response. I knew I could count on you!
Despite being a "home" user, the information you provide steers me towards the E10. For us, 90% of coffee consumption is with darker roasted varieties as my wife and I prefer a more traditional Italian espresso. I usually only pine for a lighter, sweeter, more floral bean on occasion. I wish I could get these two grinders side-by-side and taste the difference for myself.
Also, noise is an important factor, and it was one of the reasons I ended up with an HG-One. The main concern I have is regarding retention. I initially wanted to single-dose all the time, and although this desire has faded, I don't want to be overly wasteful.
i can tell you for free that you will be splitting hairs on the taste difference
the E8 gives ever so slightly more of the characteristics of a large flat grinder (slightly better separation of the different flavours within the bean and the cost of a slight loss in body), relative to the E10
obviously as the diameter of the flat burrs becomes larger the differences are magnified, i.e. R120, but at the E8 level the divergence in taste is only just commencing
I was out for a long bike ride today, and was thinking about the differences between flat and conical, and one of the questions which entered my mind was: How pronounced would the difference be 83mm Flat vs. 68mm Conical compared to 83mm vs 83mm?? My train of thought was the difference wouldn't be as stark because of the disparity in size between the E8 and E10. Now if the E10 had 83mm burrs...?
conical burrs deliver a different shape of coffee grind to flat burrs, which is what is responsible for the taste difference
try a Mazzer Robur in 71mm or 83mm by all means, but I've been there, done that and the K10/F10/E10 burr set gives a better taste in the cup, in my view. i can't prove or demonstrate that with differential calculus, but we have spent a lot of time pulling and tasting shots which resulted in us moving from selling Mazzer grinders to Compak grinders
the Ceado E37S is another 83mm flat burr grinder that comes highly recommended as an alternative to the Compak E8
but if you like your darker roasts then the Compak E10 is the way to go, but you have to accept the retention tax, which is about half that of the Robur E to put it in perspective
While waiting for some fresh beans and having my hopper low on my E10, i filled a set of double freezer bags with about 400gm of water to add some weight to the remaining beans. It appears to have worked to a degree.
Why do this? Well as my hopper emptied to where there was less than 200 gms of beans, I noticed a distinct change to the flow of my extractions. They became faster so I tightened the grind a little. I placed the water bag in the hopper and I have not had to adjust it further. I have probably reached the limit using this idea now that the hopper is almost empty.
Ben post=10352 wrote: Living on the edge there, Trevor. Putting water in such an expensive grinder makes me nervous no matter how trustworthy your bag manufacturer is...
Nevertheless, appetite for risk is variable
Double bags and smooth contents! Won't be left in there to add to the slight risk!
Trevor, I started laughing when I saw your water filled bags. A few years ago, my wife was feeling unappreciated because her elderly Toyota did not have a compass. I went to the local auto shop, bought an old-fashioned compass that affixed to the dash with some sticky tape. Well, it was the middle of winter in Minnesota and I knew the adhesive wouldn't work in that temp. So... I had this bright idea of filling up freezer bags with hot water and setting them on the dash to warm it up. Of course the bag leaked all over the dash, seeped into the radio and the CD player never worked again. I had to buy a whole new radio/CD for the car. Never did put on the compass. My wife is still reminding me of this. So, be careful where you put plastic bags filled with water! Michael
I haven't tried it but I was thinking a bag of pie weights would prolly work pretty well. That might be something to try, a little less dare devil too! I'd want to have something at the bottom of any bag to keep the bag from being ripped by the spinning burr. Pie weights or water in those burrs would be bad.
After reading Michael's story you might want to consider an alternative
Thanks for your suggestions. I'm now convinced about not using liquid as a weight.
Since these bags (at least when doubled) seem pliable enough to transfer the weight to my real beans, I'm now thinking of using coffee beans (those that you can buy really cheap and would never use in our gear) in the bags.
That way should a tear develop in the bags, no harm done, just clean the beans and start over. About 500 grams of beans should do it.
Reiss, maybe there's a small market for poor or non commercial roasts?
I have often wondered why the "lead in" to a set of coffee grinder burrs is left to chance in the way that it is.... The designer has spent so much on R&D and ended up with an empty cylinder.
I was wondering whether it would be possible to make that transition more reminiscent of a steak mincer.
i.e. In front of the burr set, there needs to be an expanded extended part of the burrs that has an awl, to lead the beans towards the burr set. Such a contraption could be crafted to feed beans in at a given rate dependent on the design, and it wouldn't matter if there were only enough beans for one cup or for a kilo of beans.
The obvious reason for not doing something like this would be that the grinders are designed for coffeeshop use and as such always have a weight of beans above, so there is a new set of consumers there... us.
I guess what you say is true. Burr design is designed for volume productive output and probably ignores the idea that someone would single dose. This seems to apply to conical burrs in particular.
I can see some commercial reasons for not creating a "longer" lead in path to the grind surface. In conical burrs, the depth of the burrs would probably double to catch and draw in beans. Additionally, adjustment mechanisms and their range of operation may be affected.
From what I see, flat burr machines with large diameter appear to produce the grinds in a more consistent size and more narrow distribution of size which results in better extraction and less retention because their path through the machine is relatively short. Downside - the price generally reflects this quality.
I use an Orphan Espresso Pharos hand grinder. It has 68mm conical burrs and is made for single dosing. Retention is less that 0.5g. And as far as I can tell, the taste of the resulting espresso is top notch.
Hi Trevor, thanks for that, I have recently been making more pour-over coffees, it started with me and an AeroPress in Ireland and is now back to the SwissGold (better by miles than AP).
So, I have wanted the ability to single-dose... Out came the old SJ and there it sits, next to the Nino... I have recently had thoughts about replacing the Nino with something like a s/h Royal, which has nice slow turning 83mm flat burrs, but I haven't done anything yet, apart from advertise the Nino at a ridiculously high price on CoffeeForums.
Comments
Comparing the E10 to and E8 would indeed be interesting since one is conical and the other flat.
Fellow forum member David Hyde really rates this grinder a lot
I wonder what the grounds in the chamber measure? My Kony was 35g stuck in the grinding chamber.
In that Link Dave Hyde reports very little retention but no specifics.
dave advocates using a camera lens cap as a bellows for single dosing to blow the retention clear and achieves very low retention with that method - 2g or something of that order from memory
i don't use my E10 that way - i have the full size hopper (as the optional short hoppers are expensive i think for a plastic can)
then i put in 500g of beans typically and off we go
using this approach my 'feeling' is the retention is more than 10g, but less than 18g
but as i have written previously, i think due to the way in which grounds are displaced from grinders it isn't a binary function
i.e. there isn't a clear line where all the old grounds cease
instead the old grounds are pushed out as a long taper - the better the grinder the shorter this 'taper' period is
so i think the E10 clears the old grounds much more quickly than the K10 fresh, but unless you are going to single dose and blow clear each time you will still have this taper to transition across from stale grounds to fresh
if i dump the first 10g out (which you can program one of the 3 memory buttons to do) the next 18g gives me an acceptable espresso, but the 18g after that is noticeably better, no denying that
As you can see from previous posts in this thread, I have tried the "Lens Hood" and the "flush" is not entirely complete. Dumping the first 10gm after a 12-15 hour rest removes most but not all stale grinds. The first dose runs a little quicker and is acceptable but subsequent doses are the best.
My greatest concern with single dosing is the way ANY grinder behaves when there is no continuing pressure of bean on the burrs. The ideal burr set would be one where the mean variation of the size of grind is minimal and thus having an even distribution and flow during extraction. The more fines a grinder produces, the more likely water will create paths of less resistance and we get "micro" or "full on" channelling within the puck affecting the result.
My view after having the HG1 and experimenting with the E10 is that single dosing has its problems and much of it relates to the creation of more fines and wider variation of grind size. High capacity grinders reduce the beans to grinds of the required size and expel them.
While on the subject of grind size, I think the HG1 has a real design flaw because the lower burr is at the end of a 15mm shaft supported some 100mm+ away by two bearings less than 80mm apart. I moved my HG1 on before doing any measurement on the shaft runout when grinding but I suspect its not insignificant and thus creates more variation in grind size. Perhaps someone with a HG1 and a metal lathe tool could measure the runout during grinding, particularly at various stages of the dose as the burrs are pushed by the beans from side to side. There may be existing runout in the shaft to start with and grinding makes it worst as the shaft is not well supported. The type of bean, its roast and therefore hardness could play a part in the amount of runout during grinding. The design would perform better if a bearing supporting the inner burr was located closer to the burr set. I appreciate form but not when function could be comprised.
i'll have one within the next month i expect. This time in polished aluminium
David Hyde on this forum has had an E8 for quite a while - send him a PM
Reviving this thread since I'm in the market for a new grinder, and trying to evaluate the differences between the E10 and E8. Yes, I understand the obvious mechanical differences, but more to the point the differences in the cup. Reiss, have you been able to compare the two?
Thanks for any and all information!
i'll have one within the next month i expect. This time in polished aluminium
David Hyde on this forum has had an E8 for quite a while - send him a PM
Reviving this thread since I'm in the market for a new grinder, and trying to evaluate the differences between the E10 and E8. Yes, I understand the obvious mechanical differences, but more to the point the differences in the cup. Reiss, have you been able to compare the two?
Thanks for any and all information!
Salvatore,
One factor I did not take into account -- largely because it is not listed on any product specifications -- is that the E10's fan remains consistently ON while the machine is on. I believe this is because the e10 was designed for high volume commercial environments where there is continuous dosing/grinding and fans are needed to maintain constant internal temperature.
I should note that this is not "necessarily" a problem. I'll explain.
I can easily switch the machine off on the bottom knob which allows for 3 options:
A.) 'OFF'
B.) 'ON' with touch screen interface and PF click button set to 1,2,3 preset/programmable times.
C.) 'MANUAL' where the motor begins as soon as it is switched to manual and there is no touch or screen power/illumination and no PF click availability, and to turn off you must switch the knob to off.
I turn the machine on at the beginning of a session, dose as needed, drink (repeat as needed), clean up, and shut off grinder and L1. The fan is no issue.
If, however, I am the type of person that insists on keeping the grinder on and ready to go at any moment without flipping the ON button, then this would be a problem.
I supposed if I were using it in a cafe setting, I would have to contend with the added (but not bothersome) noise of the fan constantly running, or have my baristas trained to always flip the switch -- which would be either bothersome or near impossible to enforce.
Currently, I am without my L1 while in transition to the L1-P and moving houses, etc. Therefore, I have relegated my caffeine to the low post of the hario drip stand. SO, for single dosing for drip application, I dump all the beans in and switch it to MANUAL until the burrs run out of beans to grind. This saves me a few seconds versus using the ON with touch screen since I do not have to wait the 5 seconds for the touch screen to initialize/calibrate and turn on, instead the manual switch is instantaneous.
On the topic of grind retention... I have been consistently measuring the grind retention daily (anal, I know) as I get to know this grinder. I dump in 28g beans, turn to manual, let the burs expel the total amount of grinds and then weight. I then jiggle, tilt, and spank the back of the grinder for about 45 seconds to get any remaining particles out (no, I don't propose this is a scientifically perfect method). The most that has been in the bur chamber has been 3g. Usually it is closer to 1 or 1.5g. I suspect there is an additional 0.7-1.3 grams left stuck (static) on the inside that would be measurable only if the burs were totally cleaned out and disassembled. I DID do this once and it was about .8g that was left in the bur chamber after a thorough spanking of the grinder's base.
I also highly recommend:
1. applying loxeal (new owners received from Reiss) around the burr size adjustment threading. My threading came bone dry, leading to a very scratchy sound and rough feel when changing grind size.
2. verifying that the safety pin is in place (which prevents the burs from touching or going past the finest setting and grinding on one another). My safety pin was just floating and the rubber bushing was left loose in the bur chamber! Could have been ugly if I didn't inspect before use. Must have been a busy day at the factory when this one was assembled.
3. When doing #2 above, you may as well fully disassemble upon receipt and perform an inspection of the burs. YMMV, but I know mine were a bit oily and dirty from the factory, so a simple rub on a kitchen towel cleaned them up.
All are welcome to PM me if they have any more questions, or post here.
Hope this helps!
Thank you very much. This is great information. Does anyone know if the fan on the E8 operates in the same fashion? If it merely takes a few seconds from power-up to grind, I don't see this being much of a problem. To be honest, I prefer to let any and all electronic devices run as much as possible, but sometimes this isn't feasible.
The E8 does not have a continuous fan when on. Reiss will confirm. On the other hand, the specs show the e8 to be much louder than the e8, if this is of concern. I need to be able to sneak out in the wee morning without waking the whole family.
please do go to the Compak.es website for specifications, and also some helpful videos
the E10 has a fan which is always on, which is tiresome in a domestic environment, but then it is designed for a commercial environment where you would never hear the fan noise
when i have the E8 and the E10 side by side the E8 seems unrefined in comparison with the E10, but it is easy to lose perspective in these matters
the E10 is turning slowly, because of course it is a conical burr, and so it is quiet and refined with more of a low down rumble of something big and heavy operating in a relatively stress-free manner
the E8 is a flat burr and so it turns at about 1400rpm because basically all flat burrs have to in order for the beans to feed into the burrs properly, so it emits more of a high pitched banshee noise, relative to the E10
the E10 will throw out a given mass of coffee of the same particle size faster than the E8, but that doesnt mean the E8 is slow
in my experience a flat burr grinder of equal quality to a conical burr is better for light roasts, and the equivalent conical is better for darker roasts. i don't have anything scientific to base that on, but that is my view based on my experience to date
given that we are now focused on single origin/estate/microlot coffees, which invariably means light roasts, i feel that the E8 is a better grinder for LONDINIUM to advocate
the E10 also has noticeably greater retention than the E8, as in perhaps 20g compared with 10g - again this is a feature of conicals relative to flat burrs - its just a difference that you have to accept
the E10 is definitely built to do more heavy duty work, and there is evidence of this in things like the heavy duty on/off switch and of course the electronic fan that is not present on the E8 (the E8 has a fan mounted on the end of the motor shaft only that turns one for one with the motor)
if you were opening a busy cafe i would definitely steer you toward the E10 over the E8, but most of us here are home users. lets also not lose sight of the fact that the E8 is a veritable bargain (the E6 is a much lesser grinder, yet it is only slightly less expensive than the E8 so we have no interest in offering it)
for this reason the Compak E8 is the grinder we are going to push. regrettably we are going to cease offering the K3 as we have decided it is not up to the task of adequately showing off what our machines are capable of. this is a pity as we don't want to pitch ourselves as being too exclusive, but as always, there is a need for balance and focus. accordingly we now advocate the Compak E8 as our recommended grinder for our machines, or if circumstances demand the ultimate, the Compak R120
whatever you do, don't make the mistake of going for the K10 Fresh or K8 Fresh. as previously posted in some detail these grinders have a number of well intended features that do not work well in practice (worm gear adjustment anyone? electronic counter (0-100) on worm gear to try and track grind setting - worse than useless!), and simply result in a grinder that is unnecessarily complex and expensive: avoid.
Thank you for such a detailed response. I knew I could count on you!
Despite being a "home" user, the information you provide steers me towards the E10. For us, 90% of coffee consumption is with darker roasted varieties as my wife and I prefer a more traditional Italian espresso. I usually only pine for a lighter, sweeter, more floral bean on occasion. I wish I could get these two grinders side-by-side and taste the difference for myself.
Also, noise is an important factor, and it was one of the reasons I ended up with an HG-One. The main concern I have is regarding retention. I initially wanted to single-dose all the time, and although this desire has faded, I don't want to be overly wasteful.
Grazie tante,
Salvatore
the E8 gives ever so slightly more of the characteristics of a large flat grinder (slightly better separation of the different flavours within the bean and the cost of a slight loss in body), relative to the E10
obviously as the diameter of the flat burrs becomes larger the differences are magnified, i.e. R120, but at the E8 level the divergence in taste is only just commencing
Or am I way off base?
conical burrs deliver a different shape of coffee grind to flat burrs, which is what is responsible for the taste difference
try a Mazzer Robur in 71mm or 83mm by all means, but I've been there, done that and the K10/F10/E10 burr set gives a better taste in the cup, in my view. i can't prove or demonstrate that with differential calculus, but we have spent a lot of time pulling and tasting shots which resulted in us moving from selling Mazzer grinders to Compak grinders
the Ceado E37S is another 83mm flat burr grinder that comes highly recommended as an alternative to the Compak E8
but if you like your darker roasts then the Compak E10 is the way to go, but you have to accept the retention tax, which is about half that of the Robur E to put it in perspective
Why do this? Well as my hopper emptied to where there was less than 200 gms of beans, I noticed a distinct change to the flow of my extractions. They became faster so I tightened the grind a little. I placed the water bag in the hopper and I have not had to adjust it further. I have probably reached the limit using this idea now that the hopper is almost empty.
Trevor
Nevertheless, appetite for risk is variable
Double bags and smooth contents! Won't be left in there to add to the slight risk!
I started laughing when I saw your water filled bags. A few years ago, my wife was feeling unappreciated because her elderly Toyota did not have a compass. I went to the local auto shop, bought an old-fashioned compass that affixed to the dash with some sticky tape. Well, it was the middle of winter in Minnesota and I knew the adhesive wouldn't work in that temp. So... I had this bright idea of filling up freezer bags with hot water and setting them on the dash to warm it up. Of course the bag leaked all over the dash, seeped into the radio and the CD player never worked again. I had to buy a whole new radio/CD for the car. Never did put on the compass. My wife is still reminding me of this. So, be careful where you put plastic bags filled with water!
Michael
Very good story re the perils of plastic.
Here in Sydney, adhesive works all year round unless it's outside in summer. Tends to slip and leave a mess.
I had taken the warnings and safely removed the bags. Now I have real beans in the hopper so back to normal.
Trevor
After reading Michael's story you might want to consider an alternative
Thanks for your suggestions. I'm now convinced about not using liquid as a weight.
Since these bags (at least when doubled) seem pliable enough to transfer the weight to my real beans, I'm now thinking of using coffee beans (those that you can buy really cheap and would never use in our gear) in the bags.
That way should a tear develop in the bags, no harm done, just clean the beans and start over. About 500 grams of beans should do it.
Reiss, maybe there's a small market for poor or non commercial roasts?
why wouldn't you use green beans? they are more dense than roasted.
I was wondering whether it would be possible to make that transition more reminiscent of a steak mincer.
i.e. In front of the burr set, there needs to be an expanded extended part of the burrs that has an awl, to lead the beans towards the burr set. Such a contraption could be crafted to feed beans in at a given rate dependent on the design, and it wouldn't matter if there were only enough beans for one cup or for a kilo of beans.
The obvious reason for not doing something like this would be that the grinders are designed for coffeeshop use and as such always have a weight of beans above, so there is a new set of consumers there... us.
I guess what you say is true. Burr design is designed for volume productive output and probably ignores the idea that someone would single dose. This seems to apply to conical burrs in particular.
I can see some commercial reasons for not creating a "longer" lead in path to the grind surface. In conical burrs, the depth of the burrs would probably double to catch and draw in beans. Additionally, adjustment mechanisms and their range of operation may be affected.
From what I see, flat burr machines with large diameter appear to produce the grinds in a more consistent size and more narrow distribution of size which results in better extraction and less retention because their path through the machine is relatively short. Downside - the price generally reflects this quality.
Trevor
Matt
So, I have wanted the ability to single-dose... Out came the old SJ and there it sits, next to the Nino... I have recently had thoughts about replacing the Nino with something like a s/h Royal, which has nice slow turning 83mm flat burrs, but I haven't done anything yet, apart from advertise the Nino at a ridiculously high price on CoffeeForums.
Has anyone seen the new German single doser?
http://mahlgut.eu/mahlgut-mg-1-details/