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2013 Londinium 1 issue (new owner)
1st time posting here...
Hello Londinium community!
I have recently aquired a used L1 and I have been struggling greatly with extraction.
After talking with Reiss, he suggested my machine was running cold. My vacuum breaker was sticking now and then so I changed it. Pressure is fine and full cycle is around 70-75 seconds (240v).
The group gets plenty hot and I even burned a few shots (machine was too close to oven to be left on I believe...). I usually leave the machine on for anywhere between 16 to 48hrs (waiting on my new 240v timer to get here).
Since then I have: moved the machine further from the stove. Turned the pstat down to 1.1 bar.
Tried dosing anywhere between 13g and 18g (stock double and EPHQ14). Played with tamp, grind, passive PI, active PI... with very similar results: underextracted shots. Pale crema, tasteless and liquidy.
I have cleaned the shower screen (dispersion is good), lubed and checked the seals (they're still soft), bled the air off the TS (through the nut in the back of the group), opened a fesh bag of beans (same SO medium roast Kenyan bourbon) and have yet to pull 1 good shot in over a week now.
All this would be normal if I was a total newbie to lever machines...
But I'm not.
I also own a Bezzera B3000AL with an Astoria CMA group which has proven to he a very reliable machine for me. I have tried several doses and techniques, with always better results. Much better in fact.
I refuse to believe it is simply the CMA group that is more forgiving OR simply that I have yet to find a correct dose (then the CMA group IS nore forgiving).
I'm suspecting a pressure issue, maybe seals or piston related.
However, I do hear a small noise when the machine is idling. Sounds like water dripping or moving around. Can't find any leaks though... is it the normal sound of a closed loop thermosyphon? My Bezzera is plumbed in and has an opened loop TS.
I doubt my TS is stalling though as I flush after every pull.
Below are pictures of the same coffee, the drinkable one is with the Bezzera and the sink shot is what I've been pulling with my L1.
I would really love to get the L1 working the way it's supposed to...
Hello Londinium community!
I have recently aquired a used L1 and I have been struggling greatly with extraction.
After talking with Reiss, he suggested my machine was running cold. My vacuum breaker was sticking now and then so I changed it. Pressure is fine and full cycle is around 70-75 seconds (240v).
The group gets plenty hot and I even burned a few shots (machine was too close to oven to be left on I believe...). I usually leave the machine on for anywhere between 16 to 48hrs (waiting on my new 240v timer to get here).
Since then I have: moved the machine further from the stove. Turned the pstat down to 1.1 bar.
Tried dosing anywhere between 13g and 18g (stock double and EPHQ14). Played with tamp, grind, passive PI, active PI... with very similar results: underextracted shots. Pale crema, tasteless and liquidy.
I have cleaned the shower screen (dispersion is good), lubed and checked the seals (they're still soft), bled the air off the TS (through the nut in the back of the group), opened a fesh bag of beans (same SO medium roast Kenyan bourbon) and have yet to pull 1 good shot in over a week now.
All this would be normal if I was a total newbie to lever machines...
But I'm not.
I also own a Bezzera B3000AL with an Astoria CMA group which has proven to he a very reliable machine for me. I have tried several doses and techniques, with always better results. Much better in fact.
I refuse to believe it is simply the CMA group that is more forgiving OR simply that I have yet to find a correct dose (then the CMA group IS nore forgiving).
I'm suspecting a pressure issue, maybe seals or piston related.
However, I do hear a small noise when the machine is idling. Sounds like water dripping or moving around. Can't find any leaks though... is it the normal sound of a closed loop thermosyphon? My Bezzera is plumbed in and has an opened loop TS.
I doubt my TS is stalling though as I flush after every pull.
Below are pictures of the same coffee, the drinkable one is with the Bezzera and the sink shot is what I've been pulling with my L1.
I would really love to get the L1 working the way it's supposed to...
Comments
as i mentioned in our numerous and lengthy exchanges over the weekend, i am very happy to help
that said i need hard data, rather than simple assertions that 'the group is hot enough'
it is all but impossible that the group is hot enough and yet you achieve the obviously under extraxcted coffee images you have shown me and also posted on HB
the human hand is unable to sense temperature progression in any meaningful way (other than 'its hot') much above 70C
for this reason you need to measure the group temperature on the side, half way up (excluding the group top)
if you do not posses an instrument for measuring accurately you need to either borrow or buy one - a digital thermometer that uses thermocouple wires is really what is needed, but at a pinch i suppose you could fit a narrow range adhesive temperature strip to at least get a ball park figure
ive donated a considerable amount of my weekend time to helping you which im ok with, but there are limits and refusing to obtain the necessary tools to provide hard data for specific questions does cross that line
if you want the short answer i am willing to bet there is an obstruction in the thermosiphon circuit, most likely from calcium carbonate limescale deposits, and hopefully it is not in the injector but unfortunately that is the most likely place as the diameter of the pipe is at its most narrow at that point in the circuit
im trying to provide you with a number of tests to check that is in fact the case before you embark on stripping it down, but if you dont want to take the prudent route start pulling it apart now
kind regards
reiss.
I totally understand your side of things and I feel bad for taking your time over the weekend.
I seriously believed cleaning the vacuum (which had no traces of scale) and eventually changing it + the fact that I've seen no traces of scale under the nut behind the group was enough to eliminate the cool group assumption. I was obviously quite wrong.
Here's what I can provide as temperature measurements right now. It's obviously not optimal but I will have to order temp strips from the states since they are next to impossible to find where I live. I would obviously prefer not buying a digital thermocouple for now but I will look around see if I can find one to borrow...
Please let me know if this is solid enough to make a proper diagnosis.
I have a quality meat thermometer with temp probes that reads 69*c on the side of the group.
I flushed about 2 oz of water and got a reading of 85*c.
I pulled a shot (warm cup. 5 sec PI. Pstat at 1.1bar) and I only got a read of 60*c. Cold.
If obstruction there is in the TS circuit, would it explain the constant noise ny L1 makes?
Let me know if you need more data.
Thanks Reiss!
Thermosiphon pipe temperatures:
Mid summer;
IN: 116-118C
OUT: 110-112C
The group surface temperature on your machine, when measured at the 9 o'clock position half way between the bottom of the group and the join where the group top starts, should be 87C with a boiler pressure of 1.3 bar
The boiler pressure on the gauge should be set to reach 1.3 bar as its highest value - check that the needle sits at zero when the system is cold, as if your anti vac has been sticking it is likely that the needle on the gauge has been sucked back hard against the stop on the gauge to the extent that the needle has been rotated on the shaft of the gauge such that the needle now sits above zero when there is in fact no pressure in the system; i.e. the gauge is over reading
Me commenting on cup temperatures is fun, but its really sending me on a wild goose chase as so many variables can influence the temperature in the cup, which is why you need to measure the temperature of the system
You have a very simple machine and assuming the anti vac is now functioning and you are allowing the system one hour to warm up, for you to be getting such under extracted looking shots it remains my view that the system is running below its design temperature. The only cause of this in such a simple system is a restriction of some kind in the thermosiphon circuit
To quote Sherlock Holmes; How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?
We're not quite at that point yet, but you get the idea
Do you know for sure that a previous owner has not placed a restrictor in one of the thermosiphon pipes, for example?
There are 2 distinct noises coming from the boiler / TS : 1. water dripping and 2. almost like a stomach gurgling... I've also been noticing a slight smell in the steam, which reminds me of the smell my 79 Oly club had prior to a complete restoration... I ended up having to clean the boiler manually...
Telling you this hoping it might give some clues while I get proper temperature readings.
No visible restrictor or needle valves added.
Can't really ask the seller since he probably lied about being the 1st owner, lied about working condition of the machine, probably lied about using filtered water and... oh yeah, ?made me drive for 6hrs thinking I was buying a 2017LR only to discover it was in fact a 2013 L1. No a trusted source.
Pressure gauge sits at 0 when machine is turned off.
Would you suggest a descale to see if problem gets resolved? I know it's not as trendy as it was 10 years ago but I'm equipped and have done it numerous times on HX machines. Might be enough to get that TS going...
Thanks Reiss!
Found Ron Sanders' "descaling my Londinium 1" thread. I have done the exact same job on a few machines before so it wouldn't be an issue.
Only if I get the "go" though.
im going to take your temperature values at face value, and on that basis the system is running far too cool
the only explanation for this is an obstruction in the thermosiphon circuit, most likely in the injector
if you have taken other espresso machines apart you will find this one very easy
a word to the wise; do not use an adjustable wrench anywhere on the machine (use metric set wrenches only), strike the end of the wrench with an engineer's hammer to shock the two threads apart for ALL boiler fittings or you are likely to distort the boiler if you just pull hard on the end of the wrench with your hand
once you have the thermosiphon pipes off look down the inside of them and check that they are open (i.e. that a ptfe restrictor is not present and that they are not scaled up)
you will then need to get the injector out which is the T fitting in the end of the boiler that has the trombone shaped feed pipe from the boiler to the thermosiphon
it can be difficult to stop the boiler turning in your hands once the thermosiphon pipes have been removed, so you may need a large oil filter wrench or similar to grasp the boiler whilst you have a wrench and hammer on the T fitting you are trying to remove
the T fitting will have liquid ptfe (a thread locker) on the thread which you will need to soften by gently heating the T fitting to about 150-200C to liquify the thread locker then quickly set to with the hammer and wrench before it cools and solidifies again
once you have the T-fitting out the injector will come out with it and in there you will find the source of the restriction i expect
you will also need to check for debris just rolling around in the heat exchanger
kind regards
reiss.
Quick questions:
-This is the T fitting that contains the injector?
-What size wrench do I need for this fitting? Will need to buy some larger ones since my set is 8-19mm. Always used an adjustable wrench for larger fittings.
-Do I understand the wrench / hammer technique correctly? I need to put the wrench horizontal and then strike the end of the wrench with an engineer hammer until the fitting is loose enough that it will easily come undone with the wrench, whitout much pulling force applied at the end of the wrench.
Any images or even videos out there to make sure I get it right? Always done it applying force at the end of the wrench while applying opposite force with my hand, or something else, to the boiler.
-what's a proper temperature setting for the heat gun in order to soften the liquid ptfe on the T fitting?
- Can you suggest anfood grade thread locker for when I reassemble the T fitting?
- Any concentration recommendation for acid citric solution?
Thanks Reiss
can you please confirm that it has this pipe, https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/boiler-to-heat-exchanger-feed-pipe, running from the end of the boiler into the end of the heat exchanger with no valves mounted in this pipe - just a clean run of pipe as shown in the link above
what im trying to say is if you have something like this (image below) mounted in that feed pipe it is likely to be the source of your woe and you should remove it before pulling the machine apart
Yes.
-What size wrench do I need for this fitting? Will need to buy some larger ones since my set is 8-19mm. Always used an adjustable wrench for larger fittings.
22mm. you will definitely want a 22mm wrench as it is used in a number of fittings on the machine, and secondly you are going to be belting it with a hammer and it needs to stay tight - this is the toughest fitting on the whole machine to loosen. the larger nut that secures the bottom of the thermosiphon pipe to the T fitting is a 25mm and you can get away with using an adjustable on that, but they are so big and bulky it will be difficult to work with in that particular space on the machine
-Do I understand the wrench / hammer technique correctly? I need to put the wrench horizontal and then strike the end of the wrench with an engineer hammer until the fitting is loose enough that it will easily come undone with the wrench, whitout much pulling force applied at the end of the wrench.
Any images or even videos out there to make sure I get it right? Always done it applying force at the end of the wrench while applying opposite force with my hand, or something else, to the boiler.
yes, it is counter-intuitive but the 'shock' force of the metal head of the hammer striking the wrench is what is needed to free the two threads - progressively applied torque from just pulling harder and harder with you hand on the end of the wrench is likely to distort the boiler - i see no way how this force could be counter-balanced. you won't always get the luxury of having the wrench horizontal - it is a tight space. as soon as you sense any movement in the fitting you stop using the hammer/shock approach and just use the wrench - it is purely to free the two threads from each other. this isnt a theory of mine, this is a specific technique shown to me by the factory to 'crumpled boiler syndrome'
-what's a proper temperature setting for the heat gun in order to soften the liquid ptfe on the T fitting?
tough question. assuming it is a 3000W heat gun and it has been blowing for say 30 seconds so it is fully up to temperature then i would say 10 seconds of heat applied around the entire circumference of the fitting - i.e. dont just heat it in one spot, but all the way around - it is brass so it will move the heat around for you quite nicely, but you still need to work your way around the circumference over the course of the 10 seconds
- Can you suggest anfood grade thread locker for when I reassemble the T fitting?
https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/loxeal-55-03-10ml
- Any concentration recommendation for acid citric solution?
ive never used citric acid so im not much use, but go for a high strength and then observe its progress closely. in addition limescale hardens varies a lot in its solubility - they use hydrochloric acid at the factory and heat and ultrasonic tanks as limescale in parts of the UK is very tough - limescale in norfolk is particularly difficult to dissolve i seem to recall
reiss.
the new design is here; https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/safety-valve
I have one more question:
When stricking the wrench with the engineer hammer, am I striking the back of the wrench on a slight angle in order to loosen the fitting and slowly make it turn more and more or am I simply trying to break the bound by hitting straight?
this is the 12oz (340g) hammer i use and ive even sawn down the handle to get more control: it is more than enough for this kind of work
i have placed it alongside the portafilter handle so you can get an idea of just how small the hammer is
Attached files
this is what you are looking for:
Attached files
I will also return the demolition hammer
and get a baby one like yours
Thanks Reiss!
it doesnt matter; either will work wonderfully
the important thing to remember is 'lefty-loosie, righty-tighty'
check twice before you swing the hammer that your action will turn the nut in an anti-clockwise direction to loosen
repeated strikes of moderate force are preferable to belting it like a baseball, but at the same time they do need to be strikes, not just taps
That's were I'm at.
Little scale inside the fittings and some in the T fitting where the injector sits.
Do I absolutely have to remove the T and clean manually? I'm asking cause one of the biggest issue for me when rebuilding machines is getting those T fittings and elbows to seal in the exact same angle as they were before... liquid thread locking would help I guess but I'm wondering since there isn't that much visible scale, can I simply give the whole boiler a citric acid bath instead? Might prevent further complications.
Wanted to add that I'm impressed with the build quality. Just the fittings are a definite step up vs other prosumer machines like a Rocket let's say...
Looks like I need to remove the fittings anyway if I don't want to damage the water valve pipe.
Which part am I tryjng to remove? The small elbow at the end of the large fitting attached to the boiler?
Attached files
Absolutely otherwise you can not be sure of anything - you've essentially wasted all the effort expended so far. you have to keep going until you find the cause. We use more expensive large diameter 12mm pipes to protect against scale as best we can, but the injector by definition is much smaller in diameter and therefore much more vulnerable to being restricted by scale formation, or if there was some other kind of debris washing around inside the HX tube
Getting the T fittings back to their original position isnt difficult - the liquid thread sealant is your friend as you have already identified and you just need to take a scribe and make one mark on the T fitting and another boiler fitting so you know where to tighten it to
kind regards
reiss.
You need to get the T fitting out, not the elbow in the end of the T fitting - that won't show you much
You need to be able to hose out the inside of the HX once the T fitting is removed
Thanks again Reiss!
you are likely to do damage if you dont heat it as the liquid ptfe that the factory uses sets very hard
My heat gun was set at 1150, heating for 30+ sec. Nothing. Will try some more this morning... never got to the point of turning red but it's definitely more stubborn than anything else I've had to remove.
This Loxeal is bit overkill...
Suggestions?
i think your choices are take it to a local engine builder or engineering shop, or even mechanic at a pinch, and speak very nicely to them and for a few beers they will probably take it off for you on the spot
if you dont want to go down that route then find another way to retain the boiler
for example, you could build a wooden box around it from 20mm timber, screwing the pieces together and also placing a full end on one end of the box for strength, and screwing on battens top and bottom at the open end of the box where you are working on the boiler so you still have access to the T fitting
you would also want to remove the safety valve
then the boiler will turn inside the box until the boiler fittings bind on the side of the box and dig in
you can secure but not crush the whole box in a large bench vice, or otherwise bolt it to a frame/structure to prevent it from moving around as you work on removing the T fitting
then you can strike the wrench harder with the hammer and it will not move away so readily and more of the force will be transferred to the threads
kind regards
reiss.
Thanks!
The custom wooden box did the trick!
There is nothing obvious blocking the injector but there is some scale build up so I'll give all the dirty parts a nice acid citric bath and will put it all back together later today.
Hopefully I can appreciate that 1st Londinium espresso I've beeb dreaming about for years!
Do I only use Loxeal on the T fitting? There seemed to he some sort of thread sealant on the level probe and safety valve as well. I would assume the copper washer is enough to assure a solid seal...
Exciting!
Jonathan