Easy there, Chucky boy. 1. Point out to where I claimed to try "every possible roast" — You can't, because I didn't (little reading comprehension problem there yourself?). I said that I hadn't yet encountered a roast that wouldn't work well in the Londinium. And as for my taste in roasts, while I shy away from those that Jim Shulman has termed "3rd Wave Orange Juice," I run the gamut from quite light to medium dark. Mostly I stay away from anything that's spent more than a few seconds flirting with 2nd crack as I prefer bean origin taste to roast taste.
As to the physics, it's physics. 9 atmosphers over a set surface area requires a specific amount of pressure (of course, we're talking static pressure here, rather than the dynamic pressure espresso extraction requires, but static will do for the examples being given). If you're providing it manually, you can derive the length of needed lever by dividing that pressure by the mechanical advantage of whatever lever you're using. There's no waffling about the science and the physics. As Neil DeGrasse Tyson said, "The great thing about science is that it's true, whether you believe it or not."
I ask for cites, and you say, "look it up." Sorry, but that's not the way it works. You make the claim, you provide the evidence. I'll wait here.
1. i can't agree with you that what one person would pay for what you have asked for is 'irrelevant'. why? you may be the only person who ever buys one if we made it. sales volume is the secret sauce, so you are asking us to investigate something that would demand significant development costs and very low sales volumes. bear in mind that i have a pretty good idea of what Olympia's global sales volumes are for the Cremina
2. in my experience from when we were the UK Olympia distributor very few owners consistently realised the Cremina's potential - one in ten to one in twenty i would estimate. modern cars employ ABS and traction control and there are always Jeremy Clarkson types (like me) arguing that it reflects the intrusion of the nanny state, but it is beneficial to the majority of drivers and its a bit the same with spring lever espresso machines. which leads me to ask, which spring lever espresso machines have you personally pulled espresso on, and for each of those machines how was the taste in the cup deficient, or sub-optimal?
3. thank you for clarification on the group size - it seems you would be happy with the Cremina group with a pressure gauge added to measure dynamic pressure in the brew chamber, is that correct?
4. If you could show me images of how you have added a pressure gauge, however rudimentary, i would be most interested. in particular how do you keep coffee from contaminating the gauge - that is one aspect that I'm struggling with right now
5. the other requirements you list (mains connection etc, are easy) - the one i don't have an answer for is measuring the dynamic pressure in the brew chamber
6. if you want a hot water spigot you are going to want to increase the boiler size on a Cremina. personally I'm not sure why you would want a hot water tap on a machine that you want to keep as simple as possible - i came very close to not putting a hot water tap or steam wand on the L1 in the early stages
considering all of the above my suggestion to you, unless money is no object, would be to buy a brand new cremina and take it to a competent, proficient engineer who specialises in low volume custom work and ask him to make the modifications you have outlined to an off the shelf cremina
you don't say if manual fill on a mains connection would be sufficient, but it would avoid the need for water level sensor and control unit
your pressure gauge could be very neatly added into the group and you would have what you require for a cost that would not be outrageous
this route of customising an existing machine to your exact requirements would be far less expensive than getting someone like ourselves to undertake the project and it would ensure that you had one hundred per cent control over all aspects so the finished product would be exactly how you envisaged it
in the meantime, we look forward to seeing your Slayer when it arrives, presumably around September 2015?
A pressure gauge and a timer would be a good combo on a pull down lever. I had that thought in passing myself.
FWIW- I'd swear I saw a pressure gauge add on when I was looking at GS-3s on eBay a while back. Someone was adding them right on top of the group head.
I'm almost afraid to suggest one but a Vesuvius tells you everything you want to know. No lever of course, but if you're considering a Slayer it's an option.
Charles S post=8026 wrote: And for the longest time the world was flat! But ONE person disagreed!
You may be clever but comparing yourself to Galileo Galilei is stretching it, I fear.
Charles S post=8026 wrote: "The group is always wrong." If everyone is headed in one direction, go in the opposite
There's an interesting BBC documentary series about codes and patterns. One part researches "the wisdom of the crowd".
To your defense, on a BBC web page it is pointed out that even though "This is the essence of the wisdom of crowds: their average judgement converges on the right solution", it is also pointed out that "the crowd is far from infallible. [...] one requirement for a good crowd judgement is that people’s decisions are independent of one another.[...] If you want accuracy, then, add those who might disagree strongly with your group."
You may be right, but the odds seem to be against you, so far. There may be accomplishments or engineering insights you demonstrated elsewhere that we do not know about, which would make your statements look more credible.
Given the engineering challenges around a purely manual, commercial-sized lever espresso machine, perhaps the better approach is more of a drive-by-wire machine that instantly converts changes in lever pressure to a concomitant change in bar pressure at the puck. There could even be a mechanism to provide feedback to the arm and shoulder muscles to develop and assist muscle memory. Basically we're talking a machine that adequately magnifies the effort the barista exerts, but in a very agile and accurate way.
In addition to a gauge that reflects water pressure at the puck (this assumes the contamination issue Reiss mentioned can be addressed), it seems to me it would also be helpful having a volumetric gauge indicating the amount of water dispensed to the lever head. This would be useful for controlling that aspect of the shot during a pull.
I have no idea what a machine like this would cost to manufacture, or even if there's a market for it, but it would certainly make for an interesting project, not unlike working with Deep Blue to defeat the world's best human chess players for fun, if not for profit.
When I was researching lever machines I found one that seemed to be a 'think different' design. Not TOO differently. Solely judging from what I have read it seems the design was good but the execution was a little too much plastic. I'm speaking of the Gaggia Achille. A pull down lever / HX where the lever was pushing cold water, not hot. This seemed like a good idea if the presence of hot water in the piston = more expensive which I can see being true.
If I were more industrious I would find one and replace the pump in one of my Breville DBs with the piston mounted on a board or something next to the machine. Sure, that would look bizarre! The Brevilles have a gauge for pressure above the group. I thought that might be cool to watch as you push a shot through the puck.
I was not that industrious. If my idea is good, then I'll take credit and 20%. If not, it is something I saw on the internet.
Gaggia Achille is a cute little machine. Brilliant design, crappy execution. 58mm portafilter although piston was 47mm if memory serves me right. Still miss it, but not much... BTW I was thinking about installing a gauge on it but for a different reason - not to push seals too much
In light of everything I'm super happy with my LI and the espresso (and steamed milk drinks) I can get with all the roast profiles I enjoy. Not a fanboy of Norway style pucker roasts so I can't comment about super light/near green bean roasts...everything else works.
And its a snap to add or subtract piston pressure with manual "over-ride"; best of both worlds with options aplenty.
Very nice effort by that man on H-B. A sort of Mypressi Twist with manual power.
A friend of mine is working on a La Pavoni sized boiler machine with pressure profiling, for his study design / engineering. He's also working at Kees van der Westen to bring pressure profiling to one of his machines.
[quote= i think we are pretty democratic here actually - we don't delete posts unlike most forums so we're happy enough to give you a platform for your views
kind regards
reiss.
Reiss, I say this from my heart, you are a true gentleman. Go Londinium
Comments
As to the physics, it's physics. 9 atmosphers over a set surface area requires a specific amount of pressure (of course, we're talking static pressure here, rather than the dynamic pressure espresso extraction requires, but static will do for the examples being given). If you're providing it manually, you can derive the length of needed lever by dividing that pressure by the mechanical advantage of whatever lever you're using. There's no waffling about the science and the physics. As Neil DeGrasse Tyson said, "The great thing about science is that it's true, whether you believe it or not."
I ask for cites, and you say, "look it up." Sorry, but that's not the way it works. You make the claim, you provide the evidence. I'll wait here.
1. i can't agree with you that what one person would pay for what you have asked for is 'irrelevant'. why? you may be the only person who ever buys one if we made it. sales volume is the secret sauce, so you are asking us to investigate something that would demand significant development costs and very low sales volumes. bear in mind that i have a pretty good idea of what Olympia's global sales volumes are for the Cremina
2. in my experience from when we were the UK Olympia distributor very few owners consistently realised the Cremina's potential - one in ten to one in twenty i would estimate. modern cars employ ABS and traction control and there are always Jeremy Clarkson types (like me) arguing that it reflects the intrusion of the nanny state, but it is beneficial to the majority of drivers and its a bit the same with spring lever espresso machines. which leads me to ask, which spring lever espresso machines have you personally pulled espresso on, and for each of those machines how was the taste in the cup deficient, or sub-optimal?
3. thank you for clarification on the group size - it seems you would be happy with the Cremina group with a pressure gauge added to measure dynamic pressure in the brew chamber, is that correct?
4. If you could show me images of how you have added a pressure gauge, however rudimentary, i would be most interested. in particular how do you keep coffee from contaminating the gauge - that is one aspect that I'm struggling with right now
5. the other requirements you list (mains connection etc, are easy) - the one i don't have an answer for is measuring the dynamic pressure in the brew chamber
6. if you want a hot water spigot you are going to want to increase the boiler size on a Cremina. personally I'm not sure why you would want a hot water tap on a machine that you want to keep as simple as possible - i came very close to not putting a hot water tap or steam wand on the L1 in the early stages
considering all of the above my suggestion to you, unless money is no object, would be to buy a brand new cremina and take it to a competent, proficient engineer who specialises in low volume custom work and ask him to make the modifications you have outlined to an off the shelf cremina
you don't say if manual fill on a mains connection would be sufficient, but it would avoid the need for water level sensor and control unit
your pressure gauge could be very neatly added into the group and you would have what you require for a cost that would not be outrageous
this route of customising an existing machine to your exact requirements would be far less expensive than getting someone like ourselves to undertake the project and it would ensure that you had one hundred per cent control over all aspects so the finished product would be exactly how you envisaged it
in the meantime, we look forward to seeing your Slayer when it arrives, presumably around September 2015?
kind regards
reiss.
FWIW- I'd swear I saw a pressure gauge add on when I was looking at GS-3s on eBay a while back. Someone was adding them right on top of the group head.
I'm almost afraid to suggest one but a Vesuvius tells you everything you want to know. No lever of course, but if you're considering a Slayer it's an option.
Who's up for some nice, relaxing decaf??? Anyone?
You may be clever but comparing yourself to Galileo Galilei is stretching it, I fear.
There's an interesting BBC documentary series about codes and patterns.
One part researches "the wisdom of the crowd".
To your defense, on a BBC web page it is pointed out that even though "This is the essence of the wisdom of crowds: their average judgement converges on the right solution", it is also pointed out that "the crowd is far from infallible. [...] one requirement for a good crowd judgement is that people’s decisions are independent of one another.[...] If you want accuracy, then, add those who might disagree strongly with your group."
You may be right, but the odds seem to be against you, so far. There may be accomplishments or engineering insights you demonstrated elsewhere that we do not know about, which would make your statements look more credible.
In addition to a gauge that reflects water pressure at the puck (this assumes the contamination issue Reiss mentioned can be addressed), it seems to me it would also be helpful having a volumetric gauge indicating the amount of water dispensed to the lever head. This would be useful for controlling that aspect of the shot during a pull.
I have no idea what a machine like this would cost to manufacture, or even if there's a market for it, but it would certainly make for an interesting project, not unlike working with Deep Blue to defeat the world's best human chess players for fun, if not for profit.
If I were more industrious I would find one and replace the pump in one of my Breville DBs with the piston mounted on a board or something next to the machine. Sure, that would look bizarre! The Brevilles have a gauge for pressure above the group. I thought that might be cool to watch as you push a shot through the puck.
I was not that industrious. If my idea is good, then I'll take credit and 20%. If not, it is something I saw on the internet.
Manual + 58mm = Possible
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/espresso-press-project-t34309.html
In light of everything I'm super happy with my LI and the espresso (and steamed milk drinks) I can get with all the roast profiles I enjoy. Not a fanboy of Norway style pucker roasts so I can't comment about super light/near green bean roasts...everything else works.
And its a snap to add or subtract piston pressure with manual "over-ride"; best of both worlds with options aplenty.
A friend of mine is working on a La Pavoni sized boiler machine with pressure profiling, for his study design / engineering. He's also working at Kees van der Westen to bring pressure profiling to one of his machines.
kind regards
reiss.
Reiss, I say this from my heart, you are a true gentleman. Go Londinium
You may be clever but comparing yourself to Galileo Galilei is stretching it, I fear.