it is some time ago since you purchased your L1 and back then we did not have an adaptor to bridge from 3/8"BSP to 3/8"NPT
the good news for anyone buying an L1 is that we have offered for some time a brass adaptor to thread onto the end of the 2 meter braided stainless steel hose that we use on the L1 plumbing kit, which the gives you a 3/8"NPT male thread to connect to
however, on our commercial machines (L3, L2, and now L1 - P) we use the washing machine and garden tap thread size as it is the most commonly used in commercial premises, which is 3/4"BSP
so... this means for any north american buyers i should get a brass adaptor made up to get you from 3/4"BSP to .... (whatever is most commonly used in the States)
so, tell me, what thread size should i run on the other end of the adaptor?
OK, here is what I did with the L-I. The Plumbing Kit I purchased was a lost cause since it was cumbersome and took just as many adapter as I used to get to what was necessary to make it work with the standard American under sink plumbing.
I built apartment buildings and custom homes for over 20 years and have been under enough sinks to know what is normal.
1/2" NPT is what comes out of the wall. Then a stop cock valve is attached and from that 3/8" Compression fittings/flex hoses go to the appliances. The stainless steel braided cover over flexible tubing is the good way to go, John Guest plastic push fittings are something that works but not something I would recommend for a variety of reasons.
Here are photos of the old style Plumbing Kit showing its, what I am guessing is, 3/4" BSP threads going to a flare fitting, and the jumper to bypass the tank/pump system.
Reiss Gunson post=8513 wrote: hmm. you have flagged up an issue Stephen
it is some time ago since you purchased your L1 and back then we did not have an adaptor to bridge from 3/8"BSP to 3/8"NPT
the good news for anyone buying an L1 is that we have offered for some time a brass adaptor to thread onto the end of the 2 meter braided stainless steel hose that we use on the L1 plumbing kit, which the gives you a 3/8"NPT male thread to connect to
however, on our commercial machines (L3, L2, and now L1 - P) we use the washing machine and garden tap thread size as it is the most commonly used in commercial premises, which is 3/4"BSP
so... this means for any north american buyers i should get a brass adaptor made up to get you from 3/4"BSP to .... (whatever is most commonly used in the States)
so, tell me, what thread size should i run on the other end of the adaptor?
I certainly would hope that others chime in and offer what they are using or hope to use as a plumbing fitting size. It sure will help others who encounter this dilemma!
BSP anything/any size will not work in the USA. Nobody has garden hoses under their sinks and as a matter in fact garden hose threads are very different than NPT sizes; they are not remotely close.
Do you need a 3/8" American Compression fitting sent to NZ so you can try it?
Reiss Gunson post=8521 wrote: what I'm proposing, absent any howls of protest, is an adaptor to get you from 3/4"BSP to say 3/8"NPT
is that doing to work for most of you?
is that going to be totally unsuitable for anyone?
is there a more universally used size in the States than 3/8"NPT?
Reiss, a fitting that would help, but still staying with NPT, would be to have a fitting made that takes whatever you have and converts it to 1/2" NPT FEMALE. By doing that a reducer bushing to get to 3/8" Compression would work, OR, a 1/2" NPT Nipple with a Stop Cock Valve installed to get to 3/8" Comp.
I have found it is easier to reduce than go up in sizes.
Seriously, I could send you, or the Francino Factory, a 3/8" Compression fitting so they have something to match and machine. If you Google 3/8" Compression Fittings an entire world of whats available will appear :-) I tried adding the Link but it would not let me.
as long as the compression fitting that you are referring to is NPT there is no need - we know the thread pitch, all we need to know is that it is indeed NPT, as there are a lot of different thread profiles in use - its just about trying to offer something that keeps most people happy, most of the time
I doubt that it is NPT, it appears a finer thread, and that was why I said what I did with the offer. I can send you a valve that has the NPT that goes into the wall pipe and the 3/8" Compression going out toward the appliance if you wish.
Here is an NPT thread. (Got to go take a photo of one, be back soon). OK, here is a series of fitting comparing NPT and "3/8 Compression". Top is 1/2" NPT, next one down is 3/8" NPT, the next one is 1/4" NPT and the bottom thread is 3/8" Compression. Clearly different threads.
This next photo shows 3/8 NPT to 3/8 Compression
And this last photo shows 1/4" NPT to 3/8" Compression.
BSP in the USA will take screwing around with a bucket of fittings, as I have shown. There are companies that make adapter fittings but as you can see they end up having this cascade of brass.
Make one fitting to get from 3/4" BSP to 1/2" NPT and then going further in the local hardware store or plumbing supply is easy.
Did not notice the highlighted link. Yes, that is perfect and is something that I have in my bucket of parts.
What I was driving at was if you are making a fitting then make to to do what the two (2) fittings you propose. Yes, 2, the EPNW fitting and the fitting on the Londinium machines.
Wouldn't it be nice to sell something that is complete and just a bolt in place arrangement and not have to order yet another part?
This is that fitting, and a couple more, that was required to get from the solenoid valve threads to 3/8 Compression. Notice the BSP to Comp fitting you referenced?
The end that is not seen screws onto the solenoid valve elbow fitting and leave the 3/8" Compression male ready for the appliance hose.
I do not know about Europe but the USA has a Building Code Book that sets minimun standards. The book is getting larger and more ponderous by the second. ICBO, International Conference of Building Officials, is the beast and wading through it is not fun. The easiest way to find what is being used the most is to walk through a Big Box Store or your local hardware store and ask them what sells the most :-)
If someone was trying to decide upon an LI or an LI-P what would be, in maybe 5-bullet points or less, the comparative plusses and minusses of each and/or your qualifying criteria for recommending one over the other as it applies to a home installation?
I would have to agree with one fitting and not mess around with additional bolt-on's. As you yourself preach simplicity and elegance. I too don't care for a stack of brass and would agree with Stephen with the end male being 3/8" comp.
And I second Dan's questions as I'd like to hear your take on the comparison as hard as it might be. I NOW know my wife's thoughts on the LI-P after I built a mock up and put it in our kitchen. She personally much prefers the LI but maybe some convincing is still needed :unsure:
Devin Barnes post=8532 wrote: I would have to agree with one fitting
Someone should just tell everyone building homes and kitchens to install one specific thread and size of connector for any peripherals, so all over the world it will be simple to connect just one standard size and thread hose.
;-)
Just kidding. I don't think we can expect one manufacturer to ensure that everything fits everywhere without any change of fitting. Just like my iPhone won't charge on someone's Nokia power adaptor.
If someone was trying to decide upon an LI or an LI-P what would be, in maybe 5-bullet points or less, the comparative plusses and minusses of each and/or your qualifying criteria for recommending one over the other as it applies to a home installation?
Not Reiss (obviously) but a couple of thoughts from an outside observer. [ul] [li]I'll go out on a limb and guess that the in-the-cup taste differences are pretty subtle, more subtle than the differences between beans ground on a big conic vs. big flat grinder.[/li] [li]The most significant difference between the two machines is that honkin' huge boiler. Again I guess that it will matter to some extent with workflow and especially you're pulling lots of milk drinks in succession.[/li] [li]If you're plumb-in ready and have a 240v connection handy, the L1-P may be preferred over a 110v L1.[/li] [li]Being a somewhat rarer machine, the L1-P might retain higher resale value for the enthusiast market.[/li] [li]Even though it's more massive overall, the 5cm shorter depth on the L1-P might matter (to a spouse or in some countertop situations).[/li] Just IMHO, and lots of guessing at that. [/ul]
If someone was trying to decide upon an LI or an LI-P what would be, in maybe 5-bullet points or less, the comparative plusses and minusses of each and/or your qualifying criteria for recommending one over the other as it applies to a home installation?
Thanks,
Dan
Want to plug it in and start pulling shots 12 minutes after turning it on? (120V, North American plug, don't want to plumb it in) L1
Want to run large doses (>18g) with no tweaking of the steam wand to raise the pre-infusion pressure? L1-P
Want a cup warmer? L1-P
Want more depth and body in the shot? L1-P
Need a machine with a depth dimension that is less than the L1, but taller? L1-P
Want speed? L1-P (shorter pre-infusion time of 3-5 seconds typically)
Reiss Gunson post=8535 wrote: Want more depth and body in the shot? L1-P
Reiss, I think you may have discussed this in another thread, but would you mind going into this a little more? More body because you're pulling a larger dose for longer? What do you mean by depth in this context? And what's the tradeoff compared to the L1? Less clarity, subtlety, ...?
by more depth to the shot i am referring to a shot having more pronounced layers of taste in it, so the lighter brighter notes in the front that are already there in the L1, but then the L1-P adds deeper richer heavier notes in the background
there is no loss of complexity (unlike adding a twin spring, which brings more body, but kills the complexity)
there is of course a need to plumb it in which many owners are unable or unwilling to do
and of course, you have to wait an hour for the machine to heat up: you can't flush it hot, as you can on an L1
Dunh Duh Dunnnnnnnnn, we have a Picture of the LI-P. Remarkably beautifully as usual Reiss. Ahhh you make is so hard to for me to decide, but as I've said earlier, my better half probably over rules. Plus i could put the extra money towards a large conical.
I'm feeling that my rare and beautiful L1-Luxe will not be with me forever. And I'd promised it we would never part!
I like the proportions. It looks very serious, like a well designed building. Classic, not monumental as if to dwarf the people, no Soviet architecture and no frivolous art deco either, but just right, a timeless piece.
Frans Goddijn post=8612 wrote: I like the proportions. It looks very serious, like a well designed building. Classic, not monumental as if to dwarf the people, no Soviet architecture and no frivolous art deco either, but just right, a timeless piece.
I feel the same way. It is far more refined in appearance than the other machine that is in this class and still currently made. I must confess however that the Art Deco look has real appeal to me, maybe because I was raised with that form of art, but with pop-off panels there might be things that could be done if one wants to spend the time and money with curved glass and/or hammered copper panels.
Because it preinfuses at higher line pressure than the L1, the L1-P is obviously superior at pulling higher-volume shots. But how does it do on smaller weights/volumes compared with the L1, e.g., 7g coffee for a 14g shot? Does the extra bar or two of pressure make classic singles trickier to pull off (pun intended)?
John Heckendorn post=8929 wrote: Question for Frans Goddijn about the L1-P...
Because it preinfuses at higher line pressure than the L1, the L1-P is obviously superior at pulling higher-volume shots.
If I load 18g of beans and want to extract 22-33g of restart/espresso, I let go of the remainder so it does not matter much to me if the "shot volume" is bigger. But indeed if I want to play at other ratios that's possible.
John Heckendorn post=8929 wrote: But how does it do on smaller weights/volumes compared with the L1, e.g., 7g coffee for a 14g shot? Does the extra bar or two of pressure make classic singles trickier to pull off (pun intended)?
I suck at using the 7g basket, never use it since trying and when I bought the IMS 'The Single' basket I liked it but gave it away. So if I tried the 7g now, the result would say more about me than the potential of the basket.
I will try the OEM 14-15g basket though.
The difference is not so much the potential for large volumes as the wider "spread" of pressure, starting higher and ending at about the same pressure when I pull the cup away from under the group.
The regulator allows me to limit the line pressure and I plan to experiment with that a bit, going from the "more full bodied" L1-P extraction closer to the "more subtle" L1 effect.
But for now I tend to want to go slowly, not changing everything all the time so I can really get a feel and routine for the "handwriting" of the L1-P before I change something. There's my new grinder, expected next week, so that will already b a major change.
Comments
it is some time ago since you purchased your L1 and back then we did not have an adaptor to bridge from 3/8"BSP to 3/8"NPT
the good news for anyone buying an L1 is that we have offered for some time a brass adaptor to thread onto the end of the 2 meter braided stainless steel hose that we use on the L1 plumbing kit, which the gives you a 3/8"NPT male thread to connect to
however, on our commercial machines (L3, L2, and now L1 - P) we use the washing machine and garden tap thread size as it is the most commonly used in commercial premises, which is 3/4"BSP
so... this means for any north american buyers i should get a brass adaptor made up to get you from 3/4"BSP to .... (whatever is most commonly used in the States)
so, tell me, what thread size should i run on the other end of the adaptor?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hose
I built apartment buildings and custom homes for over 20 years and have been under enough sinks to know what is normal.
1/2" NPT is what comes out of the wall. Then a stop cock valve is attached and from that 3/8" Compression fittings/flex hoses go to the appliances. The stainless steel braided cover over flexible tubing is the good way to go, John Guest plastic push fittings are something that works but not something I would recommend for a variety of reasons.
Here are photos of the old style Plumbing Kit showing its, what I am guessing is, 3/4" BSP threads going to a flare fitting, and the jumper to bypass the tank/pump system.
https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25qXGF1GYyKJy
Sorry for the jumble of photos but it should get the idea across.
Notice the stack of fittings on the solenoid to get to 3/8" compression?
3/8" American Compression is desirable since most of the stainless braid covering hoses are available in my local Ace Hardware.
I certainly would hope that others chime in and offer what they are using or hope to use as a plumbing fitting size. It sure will help others who encounter this dilemma!
BSP anything/any size will not work in the USA. Nobody has garden hoses under their sinks and as a matter in fact garden hose threads are very different than NPT sizes; they are not remotely close.
Do you need a 3/8" American Compression fitting sent to NZ so you can try it?
is that doing to work for most of you?
is that going to be totally unsuitable for anyone?
is there a more universally used size in the States than 3/8"NPT?
that is helpful dan, thank-you.
Reiss, a fitting that would help, but still staying with NPT, would be to have a fitting made that takes whatever you have and converts it to 1/2" NPT FEMALE. By doing that a reducer bushing to get to 3/8" Compression would work, OR, a 1/2" NPT Nipple with a Stop Cock Valve installed to get to 3/8" Comp.
I have found it is easier to reduce than go up in sizes.
Seriously, I could send you, or the Francino Factory, a 3/8" Compression fitting so they have something to match and machine. If you Google 3/8" Compression Fittings an entire world of whats available will appear :-) I tried adding the Link but it would not let me.
as long as the compression fitting that you are referring to is NPT there is no need - we know the thread pitch, all we need to know is that it is indeed NPT, as there are a lot of different thread profiles in use - its just about trying to offer something that keeps most people happy, most of the time
Here is an NPT thread. (Got to go take a photo of one, be back soon). OK, here is a series of fitting comparing NPT and "3/8 Compression". Top is 1/2" NPT, next one down is 3/8" NPT, the next one is 1/4" NPT and the bottom thread is 3/8" Compression. Clearly different threads.
This next photo shows 3/8 NPT to 3/8 Compression
And this last photo shows 1/4" NPT to 3/8" Compression.
sorted?
so if i add an adaptor to screw into the 3/4"BSP that brings it down to 3/8"BSP its all good
no point in re-inventing the wheel
Make one fitting to get from 3/4" BSP to 1/2" NPT and then going further in the local hardware store or plumbing supply is easy.
What I was driving at was if you are making a fitting then make to to do what the two (2) fittings you propose. Yes, 2, the EPNW fitting and the fitting on the Londinium machines.
Wouldn't it be nice to sell something that is complete and just a bolt in place arrangement and not have to order yet another part?
This is that fitting, and a couple more, that was required to get from the solenoid valve threads to 3/8 Compression. Notice the BSP to Comp fitting you referenced?
The end that is not seen screws onto the solenoid valve elbow fitting and leave the 3/8" Compression male ready for the appliance hose.
I do not know about Europe but the USA has a Building Code Book that sets minimun standards. The book is getting larger and more ponderous by the second. ICBO, International Conference of Building Officials, is the beast and wading through it is not fun. The easiest way to find what is being used the most is to walk through a Big Box Store or your local hardware store and ask them what sells the most :-)
If someone was trying to decide upon an LI or an LI-P what would be, in maybe 5-bullet points or less, the comparative plusses and minusses of each and/or your qualifying criteria for recommending one over the other as it applies to a home installation?
Thanks,
Dan
And I second Dan's questions as I'd like to hear your take on the comparison as hard as it might be. I NOW know my wife's thoughts on the LI-P after I built a mock up and put it in our kitchen. She personally much prefers the LI but maybe some convincing is still needed :unsure:
Someone should just tell everyone building homes and kitchens to install one specific thread and size of connector for any peripherals, so all over the world it will be simple to connect just one standard size and thread hose.
;-)
Just kidding. I don't think we can expect one manufacturer to ensure that everything fits everywhere without any change of fitting. Just like my iPhone won't charge on someone's Nokia power adaptor.
Not Reiss (obviously) but a couple of thoughts from an outside observer.
[ul]
[li]I'll go out on a limb and guess that the in-the-cup taste differences are pretty subtle, more subtle than the differences between beans ground on a big conic vs. big flat grinder.[/li]
[li]The most significant difference between the two machines is that honkin' huge boiler. Again I guess that it will matter to some extent with workflow and especially you're pulling lots of milk drinks in succession.[/li]
[li]If you're plumb-in ready and have a 240v connection handy, the L1-P may be preferred over a 110v L1.[/li]
[li]Being a somewhat rarer machine, the L1-P might retain higher resale value for the enthusiast market.[/li]
[li]Even though it's more massive overall, the 5cm shorter depth on the L1-P might matter (to a spouse or in some countertop situations).[/li]
Just IMHO, and lots of guessing at that.
[/ul]
Want to plug it in and start pulling shots 12 minutes after turning it on? (120V, North American plug, don't want to plumb it in) L1
Want to run large doses (>18g) with no tweaking of the steam wand to raise the pre-infusion pressure? L1-P
Want a cup warmer? L1-P
Want more depth and body in the shot? L1-P
Need a machine with a depth dimension that is less than the L1, but taller? L1-P
Want speed? L1-P (shorter pre-infusion time of 3-5 seconds typically)
that covers it i think.
Reiss, I think you may have discussed this in another thread, but would you mind going into this a little more? More body because you're pulling a larger dose for longer? What do you mean by depth in this context? And what's the tradeoff compared to the L1? Less clarity, subtlety, ...?
by more depth to the shot i am referring to a shot having more pronounced layers of taste in it, so the lighter brighter notes in the front that are already there in the L1, but then the L1-P adds deeper richer heavier notes in the background
there is no loss of complexity (unlike adding a twin spring, which brings more body, but kills the complexity)
there is of course a need to plumb it in which many owners are unable or unwilling to do
and of course, you have to wait an hour for the machine to heat up: you can't flush it hot, as you can on an L1
I like the proportions. It looks very serious, like a well designed building. Classic, not monumental as if to dwarf the people, no Soviet architecture and no frivolous art deco either, but just right, a timeless piece.
Spouses can't object to that.
I feel the same way. It is far more refined in appearance than the other machine that is in this class and still currently made. I must confess however that the Art Deco look has real appeal to me, maybe because I was raised with that form of art, but with pop-off panels there might be things that could be done if one wants to spend the time and money with curved glass and/or hammered copper panels.
patiently (ha!) waiting for the big box....
Because it preinfuses at higher line pressure than the L1, the L1-P is obviously superior at pulling higher-volume shots. But how does it do on smaller weights/volumes compared with the L1, e.g., 7g coffee for a 14g shot? Does the extra bar or two of pressure make classic singles trickier to pull off (pun intended)?
If I load 18g of beans and want to extract 22-33g of restart/espresso, I let go of the remainder so it does not matter much to me if the "shot volume" is bigger. But indeed if I want to play at other ratios that's possible.
Still, Juan Ariza got a similar volume out if his L1:
http://londiniumespresso.com/forum/londinium-i-owners-forum/436-londinium-i-p/page-30#8885
I suck at using the 7g basket, never use it since trying and when I bought the IMS 'The Single' basket I liked it but gave it away. So if I tried the 7g now, the result would say more about me than the potential of the basket.
I will try the OEM 14-15g basket though.
The difference is not so much the potential for large volumes as the wider "spread" of pressure, starting higher and ending at about the same pressure when I pull the cup away from under the group.
The regulator allows me to limit the line pressure and I plan to experiment with that a bit, going from the "more full bodied" L1-P extraction closer to the "more subtle" L1 effect.
But for now I tend to want to go slowly, not changing everything all the time so I can really get a feel and routine for the "handwriting" of the L1-P before I change something. There's my new grinder, expected next week, so that will already b a major change.