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L1-P gestation period nearly complete
Looking forward to pictures of the finished product, but even more to some thoughtful assessments from experienced owners. A couple of questions:
[ul]
[li]If a water regulator is installed upstream, what will the optimal pressure be for this machine? Will that vary by altitude or other conditions?[/li]
[li]How will the workflow vary from the L1 if one is making a succession of drinks (e.g., for a few visitors)? I have to imagine the size of the boiler and wattage of the heating element will have a (positive) impact, especially for milk drinks.[/li]
[/ul]
[ul]
[li]If a water regulator is installed upstream, what will the optimal pressure be for this machine? Will that vary by altitude or other conditions?[/li]
[li]How will the workflow vary from the L1 if one is making a succession of drinks (e.g., for a few visitors)? I have to imagine the size of the boiler and wattage of the heating element will have a (positive) impact, especially for milk drinks.[/li]
[/ul]
Comments
You mean line pressure or boiler pressure?
In a cool climate / room the boiler pressure/temperature will have to be a little higher than in a warm house in a hot summer.
Line pressure / pre-infusion pressure seems to be best between 2-3 bar, if I've remembered correctly what L2 users have posted.
Work flow will be much the same, I expect.
With respect to workflow, I'm wondering whether the combination of greater thermal stability (an assumption) and more steam capacity (ditto) will provide some options for ordering activities that would be more difficult on a machine with a much smaller boiler, especially when turning out 6-12 drinks in a row.
Frans, will you be testing out an L1-P when they become available?
I have a Rocket with dual OPV (about 1 bar pre-infusion, 9 bar extraction) so I could in principle tweak pre-infusion pressure and extraction pressure every time I feel the bean/grind/dose would require that but I do not go there. I feel I would need to pretend to be some real geeky expert with super refined senses to play that game ;-)
Sometimes I hear from Strega users who make the best of the steep dynamic increase of pre-infusion pressure to get really good at surfing that wave, but I enjoy the simplicity of the time proven principle of the lever machine.
The L1 is thermally stable and in the early days I did lots of measurements, also with a quick succession of up to a dozen extractions. The results were good, so good that one expert on the H-B forum got fed up with it and remarked something like, "yeah yeah we KNOW your machine is okay" ;-)
I'm looking forward to seeing more of the new machine as much as anyone!
3 bar, +/- 1 bar if you want to meddle with it
You see the guys who build super complex machines say you need to be able to adjust everything to make great espresso for different roasts, different beans, etc, etc
We reject that philosophy entirely, and offer a philosophy of simplicity and being brilliant at the basics as an alternative paradigm
Secondly we've sat quietly in enough high end espresso bars around the world and from simple observation came to the conclusion that whilst these machines might be bought on the premise that they allow you to tweak the variables on the fly from one shot to the next, in reality it simply doesn't happen. Most cafes spin the wheels fairly hard just to pay the bills and survive. What they value is simplicity
Which is why when people ask about tweaking things I'm always a bit torn in my response. If you like our work, its presumably because you believe in our philosophy of simplicity. So with that in mind set the damn thing to 3 bar line pressure and get on with it. If you want to fiddle-fart around with it for half a day, by all means do so. But I can tell you right now from wasting my own time on it that 3 bar is the sweet spot
If people want to improve their performance upgrade the grinder and the beans - that's where the performance gains are going to come from. If you are buying supermarket coffee you're drinking dirge - it doesn't matter which supermarket in which country - they're all the same. They sell on the three 'C's'; cheap, consistent, crap. Put time and effort into hunting down genuine speciality coffee; that will reward you
Playing with our machines will most likely impair the performance. If people want knobs to fiddle with we are the antithesis of what you are looking for and you need to purchase one of the many super complex machines on the market, as I can almost guarantee that you will come back to us for the machine after that one
A larger boiler is helpful, yes, of course it is. But kilowatts per litre will be lower than the 2.4KW L1
You can pull shots back to back on the L1-P, just as you can on the L1, but the L1-P will cope better with a lot of hot water being drawn off, for example to fill a teapot, by virtue of the larger boiler
The architecture of the L1-P/2/3 does give more body to the shot, no question, but whether that is desirable will be down to the individual. The L1 gives the classic dipper taste without over heating, that's the genius of the L1, and it's as small as we can make it with proper engineering, I.e. without loading the chassis with steel weights in the back which I think is a rather crude solution, but I don't expect universal agreement on that either
Best
Reiss.
Reiss, you have said that the LI-P will have a 2700W element, and that makes it less watts per liter than the L-I 120v version as you have pointed out. Doesn't that make the recovery time between shots or hot water usage less capable than the L-I??? On the L-II you have 2 heating element options, a 4Kw element and a 7.5Kw; which ones have you sold as the standard and preferred?
Will the L1-P be offered with a higher powered heating element???
I don't think pulling 40ml of water through the huge Heat Exchanger inside the much bigger boiler will send a cold shiver through the machine ;-)
Pulling a gallon of tea water from the boiler and trying to do the same a minute later could be over stretching it. But if one needs to take a shower or a hot bath, the LI-P is not for that, it's for excellent espresso ;-)
If you have two options (boiler size, HX size, heating element size), that does not mean that one of them must be the silver bullet and the other a recipe for disaster.
I'm guessing the differences will be pretty subtle, with each machine being slightly better than the other -- mostly operationally -- depending on circumstances. I'd hazard a guess I wouldn't discern any real difference in the cup. Maybe the L1-P will be a little more expensive in electricity consumption...and of course slower to bring up to temperature from cold.
Reiss, you have said that the LI-P will have a 2700W element, and that makes it less watts per liter than the L-I 120v version as you have pointed out. Doesn't that make the recovery time between shots or hot water usage less capable than the L-I??? On the L-II you have 2 heating element options, a 4Kw element and a 7.5Kw; which ones have you sold as the standard and preferred?
Will the L1-P be offered with a higher powered heating element???
hi stephen
lets look at the heating energy per litre between our machines;
L1/120V = 1400/2300 = 0.61KW/L
L1/240V = 2400/2300 = 1.04KW/L
L1-P = 2700/7000 = 0.39KW/L
L2 = 4000/14000 = 0.29KW/L
L3 = 7500/20000 = 0.38KW/L
when i set the data out like that you can see that the L1-P will not be under powered
when the boiler is small the impact on the system from pulling a single shot is much greater, so the power to volume ratio needs to be greater as the machine is semi-continuously restoring pressure to the system
the L1-P will have approximately three times the boiler capacity of the L1, which obviously means that the boiler pressure is impacted to a much lesser extent when water is drawn off for a shot of espresso
the L1-P will be offered with one element size only, 2700W
kind regards
reiss.
I'm guessing the differences will be pretty subtle, with each machine being slightly better than the other -- mostly operationally -- depending on circumstances. I'd hazard a guess I wouldn't discern any real difference in the cup. Maybe the L1-P will be a little more expensive in electricity consumption...and of course slower to bring up to temperature from cold.
hi john
that's exactly right - the L1-P will consume more energy - it is a function of boiler capacity
and, as with the L2 & L3, you can not flush them hot - you need to give them 50 - 60 minutes to heat up from cold
kind regards
reiss
again, a larger boiler gives you a larger volume of steam lying along the top of the boiler
this means when you open the steam tap, the steam keeps coming for longer
on the L1 you need more energy per litre so the element can respond and generate more steam quickly enough, as the volume of steam lying at the top of the boiler is so much less
kind regards
reiss.
Reiss, you have said that the LI-P will have a 2700W element, and that makes it less watts per liter than the L-I 120v version as you have pointed out. Doesn't that make the recovery time between shots or hot water usage less capable than the L-I??? On the L-II you have 2 heating element options, a 4Kw element and a 7.5Kw; which ones have you sold as the standard and preferred?
Will the L1-P be offered with a higher powered heating element???
hi stephen
lets look at the heating energy per litre between our machines;
L1/120V = 1400/2300 = 0.61KW/L
L1/240V = 2400/2300 = 1.04KW/L
L1-P = 2700/7000 = 0.39KW/L
L2 = 4000/14000 = 0.29KW/L
L3 = 7500/20000 = 0.38KW/L
when i set the data out like that you can see that the L1-P will not be under powered
when the boiler is small the impact on the system from pulling a single shot is much greater, so the power to volume ratio needs to be greater as the machine is semi-continuously restoring pressure to the system
the L1-P will have approximately three times the boiler capacity of the L1, which obviously means that the boiler pressure is impacted to a much lesser extent when water is drawn off for a shot of espresso
the L1-P will be offered with one element size only, 2700W
kind regards
reiss.
Thanks for the info Reiss!
S.
Yes, there's a lot to be said for thoughtful, elegant design and engineering.
One last question about boiler recovery (somewhat academic, since I'd run only a plumbed-in machine): On the L1, is there any real difference in recovery after shot pulls between a plumbed-in and a tank model? I imagine not, or not significantly, even if the incoming water going into a plumbed-in machine may be a bit colder than what would be in the on-board water tank, given the power of the heating element (especially the 2400 watt element).
it depends on how much water is drawn off
the volume for one espresso - you'd never measure the difference i don't think
if you drew off 500mL and you live somewhere with 'cold' cold water (if that makes sense) i expect you could measure the difference in time for the element to restore the system to full working pressure
kind regards
reiss.
Back in the days when I had decent hearing, I enjoyed thinking about stereo equipment. After awhile it seemed to me that the more knobs a stereo had on it, the greater the indication that it wouldn't sound all that wonderful. Any kind of slider indicated that the sound could be adjusted in infinite gradations between OK and awful. My ears were never good enough to get any benefit out of any six or eight band equalizer; I'd only ever make the sound worse. I decided to let the designer do the designing and I ended up with Naim, I've had it twenty years and it sounds good to me.
I don't mean to be priggish and tell anyone not to experiment as much as makes them happy. Absolutely! I have great respect for curious, creative people. You'll figure out something that will be a real improvement and eventually I'll likely benefit from your efforts. So thank you. But just for me myself, I'm happy with my simple, easy to use L1.
You might like my stereo then. It's two separate mono blocks, each one has an on/off switch at the back, the tiniest led light on the front to indicate on/off, and not one other button/slider/display thing.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hexateq/panels.jpg
Anyways, ive been following the LI-P since conceptions. A little bit of a hard pill to swallow to see that the finalized price came in 300GBP more (500US). Could have used that extra cash for accessories or import fees to the states. I will say all Londinium machines are one B-E-A-U-TIF-FUL looking machines and that is what attracts me most.
Ok to the point of the post. I was looking at the specifics & details of the LI-P in the store description and it is lacking some detail (at least to me).
1) What PF is supplied? Bottomless, single, double?
2) What are the finalized dimensions? Post #6646 & 6648 in the LI owners forum said: 500mm deep, 480 height but it did not seem concrete.
3) Would us state side people lop the UK plug off and install an aftermarket adapter or remove the cord entirely and replace with say a dryer cord with plug attached and exposed ends to re-attach to machine?
4) Do you adjust some components for 60Hz vs.50? I know of a post discussion about a fill solenoid making resonant noise.
5) With a typical cold fed HX do you have to flush and then lock and load?
Thanks,
Devin
I guess while im at it, here is my conundrum, do I buy a LI or a LI-P for my given situation?
Current routine:
Like Med to light roasts. Beans currently bought from Sweet Bloom in Lakewood, CO or Corvus Coffee. Right now Im in a blend of Brazil and Ethiopian. that has blackberry chocolate notes and a winy body that I quite enjoy (others maybe not).
Usually consume 4 doubles typ 17g, 30g out (2 for me, 2 for wife) in the AM then off to work. Lattes are infrequent and occur on weekends at best. We both are lactose intolerant and thus "milk" of choice is "coconut, almond, or hemp"
Currently using a Baratza Vario, PID Gaggia Classic heavily modified. Thinking of upgrading to HG One or a Compak E10, Ceado 37s, or EK43. As strictly a home user I like to waste as little of coffee as possible so the EK or HG one intrigues me about the minimal grind retention. I really haven't drank much from a conical. Local coffee house has a EK43 and a Malkonig K30 (read both flats)
Ive had a lever shot in Grand Rapids, MI that was fantastic but dont remember the machine. After waiting a LONG time and convincing the wife, I've been allowed to upgrade.
I have the ability to plumb in and run a 240V outlet (currently not installed). My main is checking out at 3BARg (from memory). I don't have a regulator installed. Incoming line is a 1/4" OD copper line (read refrigerator line). Will that suffice or do I need to step it up to 1/2"?
The END!
thank you for your post
1. we now supply all our machines with one naked (bottomless) portafilter per group
2. dimensions are 500mm(deep) x 375mm(wide) x 460mm(height to top of casing) and 840mm (height to the top of lever)
3. cut off the UK plug and wire on a NEMA 6-15 plug (get an electrician to do it if you are not comfortable with it, or if it is illegal to perform such activities where you live)
4. no. 50Hz products run on a 60Hz supply and vice-versa, unless you are talking about large electric motors, i.e. greater than 1HP. the L2 that went to Florida did create resonance in the solenoid coil and the solution was to replace the 50Hz coil for a 60Hz coil, but this indicates that the quality of the power at that site was poor. We have never come across the issue with a 240V L1 deployed in the USA. if it turns up as an issue again our approach will be the same, send a 60Hz coil
5. no. however as with the L1 it is critical the you do a short rinse of the group immediately after the shot (after the PF has been removed) in order to clear the air from the thermosiphon
kind regards
reiss.
thinking about it though, there are quite a few L1 owners connecting their machine with the John Guest plumbing system and that is all 1/4" so it must work. if i had a choice though, it would be 1/2" for me personally
I can get a NEMA 6-15amp no problem and install. As for the tubing here in the states typ "tubing" not pipe is 1/4" for appliances. Heck I even think dishwashers run on 1/4. Eh maybe 3/8" anyways that is encouraging to hear as it will be less costly for me unless I do decide to run 1/2".
So what's your thoughts on my conundrum (anyone?) based on my typ routine. Stephen why are you deciding to upgrade? Strictly asthetics? or the 7L boiler so you can pull tea pots off it?
Reiss, based in your blog post an EK43 would be tough to beat but I think that post was fairly old. I believe you are using an E10, correct? What was that deciding factor?
The RO systems that some people use are usually a mix of 6mm 1/4" and 10mm 3/8" John Guest kit, it doesn't really matter much as the water is not being made fast enough to use all of the available volume.
The output from the storage tank to the inlet solenoid should be on 3/8" and the flow rate is lower than 1/2', but the pressure will be the same, so the only difference will be a slightly longer filling time, which would only be noticeable when using the hot tap I would suggest.
Would it be correct to state that the L1-P, with the cold feed will enable a more efficient pre-infusion for lighter beans?
Hi Devin
I have churned through a number of grinders over the years as i find it is the only way to decide what suits
We sell Compak because the people who make our machines stock Compak so it makes the logistics easy
That said, i wouldn't sell Compak if i didn't like their gear
I have a Compak K3 touch, E8 (when it gets to New Zealand), K10 fresh, E10, R120
I bought three EK43s and two of them were snapped up immediately and such was the demand at the time that i ended up selling the third one too. It would be a nice thing to have lying around, but i tend to prefer to stock products that i am offering for sale
All i was making clear is that despite the fact we don't sell Mahlkoenig, the EK43 is an incredible grinder, albeit in a weird magician's hat kind of way. With the EK43 you can throw in some super light citrus acidic roast that really makes you quint when you put it through a conventional grinder, yet through the EK43 it comes out as sweet as sugar cane. It's hard to describe how remarkable it is unless you have done a side by side test. That said the EK43 doesn't give an accurate interpretation of the roast - some people will like this, others will not
The R120 is also a super high end grinder, although completely different to the EK43 and it has to be said, engineered in this century and that becomes evident quite quickly if you sit them side by side. The R120 doesnt do any magic tricks, unlike the EK43. Instead the R120 is like being given a very powerful tool for magnifying every subtle nuance of taste buried in the roast. If there are any defects the R120 will throw a searchlight on them. The R120 isn't the ideal pairing for an L1 as it robs too much body from the shot, but with the L2 & L3, and by extension the L1 - P as it is of the same design it is my favourite grinder that i have found. But it is crazy money, a crazy size, and i wouldn't ever try to talk anyone into buying one for the home. Yes, i single dose on it and it does this perfectly. The engineering is magnificant
The R120 i have at the workshop, the E10 i have at home. The E10 is a great grinder when compared to most grinders, but the R120 is just a league off in the clouds. The EK43 is too, but in a weird way - it isn't a magnifiying glass, it is a transformer. Roasts that taste like 'A' in conventional grinders taste like some other letter in the alphabet when put through the EK43, but you're never quite sure which letter it will be until you taste it. So in that sense the EK43 is incredible. Might you tire of its tricks? Perhaps, everyone expects different things from a grinder
yes, pre-infusion times come right down to 3-5 seconds even for 18g doses (because pre-infusion is occurring at 3 bar, rather than at boiler pressure of say 1.3 bar)
The biggest difficulty was getting the BSP (British Standard Pipe) conversion to American pipe and the 3/8" Compression lines.
I Posted that piping setup somewhere long ago., but in essence it is a cascade of fittings on the solenoid valve getting down to American standard. What I found odd was that the BSP direct plumb rig when to something that would be American 3/4" pipe in diameter but was a BSP Thread configuration! All very frustrating and I decided to just go from the solenoid with my own lines.
All 3/8" braided flex, except for that cheap blue plastic line running to a countertop drinking water spigot. That is going away to be replaced by a more substantial fawcet.
Yeah out of my wall is 1/2" too which has a compression "T'd" shut off valve and out one end is a 3/8" braided hose going to dishwasher and then a 1/4" copper tube snaking through the cabinets to the fridge. My kitchen is an U shape setup, with the short leg housing the sink (where main comes in) and then the far long leg having the fridge at the end. My current machine is located near fridge, hence I can tap quicker into the 1/4" than I could if say I wanted to step up to 3/8" (which would require running new copper tubing alongside 1/4" through the cabinets. I guess that was the reasoning behind my original question, but thanks for the reply.
I like the flow meter set-up on your filter. I need to do that, as right now, I just follow the recommended replacement schedule via specific date range, but I too, often thought that it would be more dependent on flow/volume through filter than an arbitrary replacement date. I guess something is better than nothing.
a) Did you buy the flow meter online or at a local plumbing shop?
b) How do you like the EPNW filter/softener?
I write the date and gallons on the paper sticky and paste it on the filter.
As to the filter itself? I tried a different Mavea filter system with an adjustable bypass but in the long run this did just as good a job with less hassle and I think a better mounting/install and change filter system.