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How much espresso do you get with a double shot ?
My shots from londinium are really good for me. I would be interested how many coffee you get with one shot ? I get for a double about 45 gr. Normally, I stop shot at about 40gr because it begins blonding.
Do you really get 50 gr and more ?
It is not really important, but it is intresting for me to hear about your experiences .
Thanks
Do you really get 50 gr and more ?
It is not really important, but it is intresting for me to hear about your experiences .
Thanks
Comments
I also have about 16 gr in the basket, but I don't get more than 25 gr out of it.
Depending on the type of bean/roast you may be able to keep your grind the same but go to 17g in the double basket. For 3rd wave/lighter roasting style I can usually do this. However with, say, an Italian roast the grind is fluffier and I am not able to get 17g in the LI double basket...
Cheers,
Dan
Standard Double Basket
~27 second extraction
usually yields about 30-38g for me. I've had shorter but rarely longer than that.
unlike a pump machine this volume of water is fixed - pumpies will cite this lack of flexibility as a limitation of lever machines, the rest of us know it is no impediment to delivering exceptional espresso
as you increase the dose in the L1 the brew weight decreases, as the greater the mass of coffee the greater the volume of water it retains as the water passes through the puck
so…. for 18g doses (which i think are a practical everyday maximum for the L1) you can expect the brew weight to fall to about 25g (when cut as blinding appears) with a run time of 27s, which i personally think is a fantastic shot
This is what I am getting as well, seems fine to me.
While the volume of the cylinder when the piston is raised is 55mL, the volume of water is actually less than this.
Looking at Frans images in
https://londiniumespresso.com/forum/londinium-i-owners-forum/9-lets-post-our-londinium-pictures#.Uk5HcBDpUXk
You can see that the water entry point to the cylinder is only open when the piston is near the top of its stroke.
When the piston is raised a partial vacuum is formed which draws air through the puck into the chamber. It's only when the piston is nearly fully raised that water can flow in. Some of the air will possibly be forced back out but in practice with a boiler pressure of about 1.3 bar I suspect that about 1/3 of the chamber volume is actually air.
I find that with a 5 second preinfusion I can extract a maximum of about 35mL.
Some water is obviously absorbed by the puck, but the remainder of the chamber volume is air.
An air release is also heard if the PF is released just after the shot has stopped flowing.
While we are discussing the L1 in this instance I expect all Spring Operated Lever Espresso Machines will be the same.
Facts speak for themselves, now how to explain the observations. Just had to go and make another cup of coffee.
5 second preinfusion
Weight of dry grounds 16.1 gms
Weight of wet puck after extraction 30.0 gms
Weight increase (additional water less coffee extract) = 13.9 gms.
From experience with about 16 gms of coffee, full infusion using boiler pressure (1.3 bar) takes about 30 seconds. I would expect that with an increased dose preinfusion would be slower (increased compaction and less room to expand) and the total weight of water absorbed will be greater.
Considering that I expect most people are now using a 3 - 5 second partial preinfusion, I think the observed relationship between how the weight/volume of the resulting espresso
drops as the dose increases, is to be expected.
Higher dose gives less preinfusion.
Higher dose has more absorbed water.
Therefore the resultant espresso volume drops.
Singles have lower doses, would absorb less water, pre-infuse better, and thus, following that logic, give out more volume than doubles. Yet they dont.
I just wonder why.
While the volume of the cylinder when the piston is raised is 55mL, the volume of water is actually less than this.
When the piston is raised a partial vacuum is formed which draws air through the puck into the chamber. It's only when the piston is nearly fully raised that water can flow in. Some of the air will possibly be forced back out but in practice with a boiler pressure of about 1.3 bar I suspect that about 1/3 of the chamber volume is actually air.
Doesn't fit with my results.....
14.0 grams of coffee, light tamp --(my standard amount/tamp).
5 sec preinfusion (no coffee drops visible yet)
at 27 seconds I would have cut the shot (around 33 grams) but now let it go to almost last drop: 52 grams yield
puck weight (14.0 gr - fines plus water): 25,7 grams so > 11.7 grams water
There is one but here: Head-Space. Lately I removed the screen and checked how much coffee I could get in the standard double basket with the screen just touching the tamped coffee (see pictures) Absolutely NO (!) head-space anymore at 16.0 grams, light tamp. (So if I want to use 16 I will have to tamp much, much harder and even then I am pretty sure the screen is touched and still squeezes the coffee....) So I don't know how you guys get in that much or even more, without loosing all the head-space......
So OK, just for fun repeated it with
16.0 grs Coffee (hard tamp)
5 sec preinfusion
max yield: 37.5 grams
puck weight: 31.4 so > 15,4 grams water
Since the tamp is not equal, to see how much water will be pulled, the experiment should be repeated but than PI should be until first drops, I think. Then at least the same space is filled with water and 'trapped' air.
The puck is saturated with water from the pre infusion, then 55 ml of water from the cylinder passes through the puck to the cup.
With other bigger basket
e.g. http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/shot-timings-and-volumes and https://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/espresso-definition-basic-techniques
Hi, But you should either decide to measure via weight output or volume. Trying to aim for both is a little meaningless surely?
As discussed most places using volume to measure is inaccurate when looking at creme levels and different beans .
I would explain it by saying you measure output by weight as its more accurate than an outdates measurement of volume.
In the end though it it tastes good is good …...
Hence the new world has moved onto brew ratios to better reflect shot composition.
To be clear though,
1 ml of water weighs 1 g
1 fluid oz of water weighs about 30 g
I should expect that 1 fluid oz of espresso and crema weighs a little less, say 22-28g.
You don't need to explain that person anything. Just make them an superb espresso and let them call it a ristretto, a single or a double, don't dispute them and don't worry about what's on some website or in some booklet somewhere ;-)
I just had an excellent espresso in a little shop called Screaming Beans here in Amsterdam, shot volume about half of what I make at home and it was absolutely delicious, so I plan to try this here as well. At that volume, the L1 could technically make three shots with one easy pull!
I usually cut my doubles when the extraction is over, i.e. 16.5g in and 35-38g out
Yet, there would be ways to increase the shot volume. Hence my following question:
Has anyone tried the fellini move on their L1?
As does this guy on youtube:
For reference, the fellini move was observed in the background of one scene in the movie 'Orchestra Rehearsal' 1978, which you can watch here:
people get much exorcised about disrupting the puck on the second pull these days, but that is a recent development that you won't find the italians getting too bothered about
for me speciality coffee has definitely moved the game on from its origins, and that is to be commended, but it doesn't mean that all that went before should be discarded
lever machine technology is less flexible than the hi-tech pump machines from Slayer, Synesso, et al, for sure, but if you are comfortable operating within those constraints lever machines give you there are so many advantages
chiefly i would cite;
1. relatively low capital cost for the shot quality
2. shot quality that matches the very best pump machines available at any cost
3. low total cost of ownership
4. a drastically reduced set of variables to manage, even relative to a manual lever
even though most posters on forums will claim that being able to control a greater number of variables allows them to attain greatness more easily, the uncomfortable truth is the inflexibility of commercial lever groups makes it easier for all but the top 4% of 'baristas' to achieve exceptional shots
this principle does not just hold true in the coffee world, but in all disciplines including medicine, stock trading, etc, etc. in short humans are drawn to complexity like moths to a lamp where we think that if we had more control, more accurate information, that our performance would improve
Unfortunately empirical studies prove time and again that control over a greater number of variables actually reduces the performance of all but 4% of the most proficient practitioners in whatever complex discipline you are talking about. go away and read up on it and become a better barista & better at whatever you do for a job too
you will find that people who don't know what they're doing in life will always try to tell you how impossibility difficult their job is. conversely you will find the very best in the most complex fields like medicine, mathematics, physics, etc are able to explain incredibly complex cutting edge problems to you in a way that you can easily understand
conclusion: cherish simplicity.
5. reliability
6. ease of servicing outside of the major cities
reiss.
ps - murphy's law is in force at all times: i.e. if it can possibly go wrong it will, usually at the least convenient time.
in espresso machine world this simply means that every join in every pipe, every component - seals, wire, valves, etc, etc all present an opportunity for failure. we have made as few a concessions as possible to market forces on functionality, whilst trying to retain a machine that will give you decades of service with only the most basic of maintenance routines. the key thing is to keep hard water (limescale) out of the machine, but this applies equally to any espresso machine
would you recommend not recommend a fellini move on the L1 ? Im not sure what the benefits of it would be in terms of taste with the machine
Very near where I live, on Overtoom, is a cafe with a very nice old two group lever machine, what one would call vintage. The man in the cafe handles the lever pretty rough and when pulling a shot he's shaking the lever as if it's a heavy gambling machine. This made me curious and I went in to try his espresso a year ago. It was no success. I think the rough handling is mainly done because the water inlet is caked with scale and he needs to pull extra to get enough water for a normal espresso volume.
Not something I envy.
If you are going to Fellini then do it very gently.
I can understand it on an ponte vecchio where the shot volumes are tiny but on a fat commercial group like the LI I struggle to see why anyone would
well you run into the issue of disturbing the puck as the piston is raised a second time, which is not ideal
try it both ways yourself every day for a whole week and decide for yourself from that which approach you like best
When I'm drinking milk drinks ( there i said it , i put milk on my espresso…. ) i only use 3-5 oz cups , so theres enough taste and volume to cut through ( with the right bean of course …. )
It happend to me once in a La Pavoni and the taste of the water was horrible until I took all the water out from the boiler and rinsed it a couple of times (doing something like that in the L1 is a bit more difficult ;-)).
Kfir.