Top Panel Vibration

Gino Magnotta

Guys

Can I ask anyone on the tank and pump version whether any of you are getting a substantial amount of vibration noise from one of the panels when the pump kicks in? I am getting loud vibrations from the top panel and try as I might to ensure a perfect panel fit when snapped back into place I can't consistently eliminate it. If I hold the group handle and just slightly push it the vibration disappears. If I remove the top panel the vibration noise is also cured. The noise is loud.

Only a minor issue this and I can live with it. The ultimate solution of course is to plumb it (which I will do at some point) but just I'd chuck it out there to the forum now in case there is anything obvious

Reiss Gunson

hi gino

its a good question and is definitely an issue on some machines and not others, and can be improved or exaggerated depending on how the panels are fitted back together

first check that nothing connected to the pump, i.e. pump hose, is touching the back panel as this is likely to cause the back panel to resonate, and also check nothing is lying directly against the metal water box either as this causes the water box to vibrate, which can in turn vibrate against the top panel

secondly, and once again i can't believe this hasn't been raised before now in the L1 future features thread, i think there could be significant noise reduction to be achieved from placing adhesive backed foam either around the top of the black metal water box, or alternatively around the inside of the right angles folds in the top panel where it meets the water box

reiss.

Kelsey

I'm going to give that a go when I have a moment.

Reiss Gunson

just thinking about it, i suspect you may be able to create a more durable solution with some of that liquid gasket goo they sell for creating automotive gaskets & the like

George Van Wagner

Surely sometthing can be done witih Sugru. another fine U.K. product.

I have used Sugru for several small repairs on my Caravel and my NS Ellimatic, as well as other little projects around the house with great success. It's a very cool substance to have around if you have even the slightest DIY tendencies.

Frans Goddijn

Great idea! I ordered some Sugru. I don't have a panel problem but it will come in handy for other fixing-gadget-things.

Gino Magnotta

Thanks for the tips all. Will pop off the panels this eve and see how we get on. Have ordered some sugru too as it looks pretty useful stuff

Unknown

Reiss Gunson post=2607 wrote: just thinking about it, i suspect you may be able to create a more durable solution with some of that liquid gasket goo they sell for creating automotive gaskets & the like

There is also a product that is adhesive backed http://www.dynamat.com/products_computers_and_more_computer_kit.html They have a variety of styles of this. I discovered it in a MINI Cooper Forum and the stuff works!

Reiss Gunson

i could be wrong, but i don't think that Sugru product is appropriate for this scenario

you need a very soft silicone compound that will soak up the vibration from the metal water box

let me see if i can find something

looks like the hi-fi guys are the place to start - http://hushmat.com/NEW_Car_Audio.php

and these guys http://zeronoise.com/automotive_noise_control/car_damping_materials.htm - in particular i draw your attention to the spray on product as many of the products listed are way too thick to fit where they need to go on the L1

and probably for a fraction of the cost and a bit of time with a ruler & a scalpel this approach is a lot more economical;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/self-adhesive-closed-cell-foam-sheets-sound-proofing-size-2mtr-x-500mm-x-3mm-/291031873528?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item

Gino Magnotta

I had a crack at this via a bit of a poke around with little success. I couldn't see anything resting against the back panel or the water box.

From what I can see the issue seems to be related to the pump metal casing resting against or on the bottom frame. I can feel the side panel reverberate appreciably when the pump kicks in. A straightforward insulation material around the box and fully around the pump casing would help to tame it I'm sure.

Clearly in a grand scheme of things this is minor and obviously has no bearing on shot quality or performance. It is also eminently fixable, including going for the plumbed in option of course. However It is mildly irritating as the excessive noise jarrs against one of the principle joys of owning a lever which is the quiet pleasure of spring-based extraction. This impacts on the enjoyment of use and the inclusion of any standard pump shouldn't really compromise this.

Hopefully the good chaps at Fracino will help Reiss to sort. It the meantime I will crack on with some solutions and report back

Reiss Gunson

hmmm...would you be so good as to send me some images Gino, as that doesn't sound quite right

the pump should be kept well clear of the chassis by the silicone rubber pump mount

Gino Magnotta

Will do Reiss. Give us a day or two. From memory the metal casing touches/rests on the main bottom left horizontal frame (standing front on). Will attempt a vid so you can see/hear the result.

Gino Magnotta

Not for the first time in my life - and actually not even the second - I was talking complete molluscs. The vibration doesn't seem to stem from the frame box (irrespective if the pump casing touches the frame or not, as I couldn't feel any vibration on the frame itself) but rather from the plastic hose that supplies water from the container to the pump itself.

I think that is what is causing the excessive noise. The hose seems to touch the waterbox at the bottom causing the box itself to reverberate and, by implication, the top panel. Any quick fix would be welcome, but I can live with it as I am constantly soothed by the quality espresso that is given up as well as the mid term plan to direct plumb.

A couple of short vids to illustrate

Reiss Gunson

hi gino

the supply side of the pump, i.e. the clear silicone hose, is not under any pressure so i think it is unlikely to be the source of the issue

it is more likely to be the output side of the pump as this is the pressurised side, and in particular the braided stainless hose terminates to the solenoid, which in turn is mounted a nice vibration transferring metal bracket which is spot welded directly onto the water box

Reiss Gunson

mounting the brass fitting on the angle bracket through a soft silicone grommet could be one solution

Reiss Gunson

if you rest the palm of your hand on the top panel when the pump is in full swing, to what extent does this alleviate the issue?

secondly, has it always been that noisy? it seems unusually loud

Gino Magnotta

That makes perfect sense Reiss. And yes, far more vibration on the braided output side

Gino Magnotta

And to answer your question no it wasn't noisy at all at the start, but settled into the sound heard in the vid after a month or so.

Reiss Gunson

have you got all 4 of the right angle folds in the top panel hooked over the top of and sitting inside the black water box? - it is very easy to have one fold sitting outside the metal box and that will create what you are experiencing

i think it is worth taking all the panels off and re-assemblying, without wishing to cause offence

put it this way, if i had that issue that would be my starting point

the other thing is, the top panel hasn't been pushed down as a result of something heavy being sat on it? if it is no longer flat this will cause it to be pushed down against the top of the box and that will amplify the vibration

Gino Magnotta

Cheers Reiss. No offence taken.

Have reassembled and all metal lips hanging over the waterbox. I can't say it has always been like this however. For the first couple of pumps this cured it and now it is getting near the noise levels previously. However I sense an improvement nonetheless.

Resting my hand on the top panel doesn't cure it. What does sort it however is if I push against the top panel from its front edge (ie directly over the water and steam wands) or hold and very gently push the lever arm.

Nothing heavy has rested on the front panel - only a few cups at most.

I can live it with it and the slight improvement from the correct positioning of the front panel is a step forward.

Reiss Gunson

ok

unplug machine from electrical supply at the wall

take a good number of images of the twist we put in the braided stainless hose so you can get it back to how it is now if you need to

then undo one end of the braided hose and take the twist out of it so it will hang in a 'C' shape - the middle of the 'C' may have enough reach to protrude into the gap between the back panel and the back of the water box

reconnect the hose end that you unscrewed & give it a whirl

let me know if that improves things

Gino Magnotta

Thanks Reiss

I got a bit more improvement by bending the folds back a bit on the top panel in the theory that they would secure the box a bit more. The top panel itself is well locked in. After running the pump a number of times the overall improvement is indeed useful. I am certainly in a better position now than where I was a couple of hours ago noise wise. Good stuff.

I will see how this goes for a few days before people embarking on the braided hose de-twist.

Once again, thanks for the service here.

Unknown

Gino! That is quite the racket!!! It really sounds like metal on metal.

Frans Goddijn

With the cover panels off, it sounded like a normal vibration pump to me. Something may have recently been done to a panel to allow it to tremble along. I think you're on the right track solving this!

Gino Magnotta

Indeed Frans without the top cover the pump sound is normal. So it is a top panel issue only.

And it looks like that ensuring all folds are over the water box and pushing the folds back a bit alleviates this issue substantially. I am now getting a far more acceptable and consistent noise level. Another near pointless vid:



So I think we are good. Thanks Reiss.

Frans Goddijn

Excellent! Now plumb in the machine ;-)

Gino Magnotta

I know, i know....

I would love to Frans. I just need my own kitchen to punch holes in rather than my landlord's! We are working on that and hopefully i'll be plumbed in by the summer after having bought a place finally.

Also need to do a fair bit of research on water options as our tap water around here is as hard as nails. I know it is all 'out there' including some superb info/posts on this forum - just need to get my head around it.

Frans Goddijn

I hired my landlord's plumber to do it and he just made a few holes in back / side panels of the kitchen cabinets so it's something that can be reversed or kept the way it i for future tenants to use or bypass.
http://www.kostverlorenvaart.nl/temp/koffie/vastwater/

Reiss Gunson

try taking the twist out of the braided hose - on the early machines we didn't have the twist in, but it was a longer hose

if that doesn't improve matters i suggest you buy some of that adhesive backed material on ebay or amazon that i identified up above and you cover the entire underside of the top panel with it

remember, we are basically talking about the vibration being amplified as a result of the top panel acting like a drum skin

ideally we should reduce the vibration on the water box by improving the mount for the solenoid, but in the meantime i think if you apply a noise deadening adhesive material to the underside of the top panel you may be pleasantly surprised at the improvement

Gino Magnotta

Ok will have a crack at it

Gino Magnotta

And had a go. Another step forward with much reduced, minor, top panel shuddering.

Braided hose as is:




Remove PCB type box by unscrewing outer bolt from thread




Unscrew top braided hose connection, untwist and place loop between back panel and water box




Whilst I am in "kill all vibration" mood I have ordered sound proofing stick on sheet which will eliminate any residual vibration altogether. Will report back. Thanks again Reiss.

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