(Reiss, please amend or delete this post if I’ve made a mistake or you disagree)
Electrically what’s in the Londinium. Power In Mains Switch Pressure Stat. Boiler Element Water Level Probe Water Tank with Sensor Gicar (Brains of the system) Pump Solenoid Valve. 2 or 3 lights Bunch of wires with connectors.
What do we know? The boiler is working. Therefor the power, switch, pressure stat, boiler and associated wiring are OK. The water level probe appears to be OK. (The pump should only run when this circuit is open hence a bad connection or open circuit will cause the boiler to overfill) When the pump comes on the blue light comes on, so I expect this means the solenoid valve is OK? What’s left? What’s happens if there is a bad contact on the bottom of the water tank, or the water tank sensors need cleaning? I can’t remember if the buzzer sounds as my machine is plumbed, but this would stop the pump. As the Blue light only comes on when the pump is operating correctly it tends to indicate the pump is OK? Its possible there is a loose connection on one of the wires which would cause the problem, but these are low current circuits so its unlikely, but then its easy to check all the wires feel secure and are correctly attached. (Please make sure the machine is unplugged before touching anything) What’s left? Really only the Gicar What would I do? Double check again all the connections and wires associated with the water level probe, but an open circuit will cause the boiler to overfill. Make sure the sensor wire isn’t touching the inside of the boiler or shorted on anything. Check the wires and contacts associated with the water tank sensor, especially the contacts on the bottom of the tank. (Would the buzzer sound if there was a problem here?) Replace the Gicar, but I think these are normally very reliable. Greg
Reiss, I confirmed that the probe is pushed all the way down. I disconnected the appropriate yellow wire from the gicar and pushed it all the way back in. I started the machine back up. After 10-15 minutes the pump ran for about 38 seconds. After the machine came up to temperature I ran at least 500cc water through the hot water tap. The pump did not start. Then I ran some water through the group head...the pump did not start. I ran more water through the hot water tap, but then after getting some water, I started getting steam instead of water and I shut the machine down. This is what I remember after 2 years with the machine.: when I turn it on, after a few seconds the pump runs for 3 or 5 seconds. After running water through the group or through the hot water tap, the pump will usually run for 3 or 5 seconds. When pulling a shot, it was pretty common for the pump to run for 3 or 4 seconds during the beginning of the shot. None of this is currently happening. Instead, the pump randomly comes on for much longer than 10 seconds. Has anyone else experienced this type of problem? I probably won't have much more time to work on this. We fly out to Seattle tomorrow. Could it be the Gicar? Rob
the reason ive not come up with a solution yet is no previous customer has reported this issue to me on a machine that is two years old and has previously functioned without incident as far as i am aware
like you, when you have eliminated everything it cant be it points to the Gicar having developed a fault, but like you say this is extremely rare - i think ive seen 2 faulty gicar (and they were on brand new machines) with more than 1000 machines sold. Gicar can cook themselves over time but this is not that kind of situation either as there would be visible burn marks on the Gicar terminals
as a pedantic point of clarification the blue light is wired to indicate that the gicar has opened the solenoid, and in a tank fed machine the pump is wired into that circuit to also turn on when the solenoid is opened, so it seems that the gicar is not responding to the level probe in a timely manner
im assuming you have a 120V machine? (please confirm)
if so i have a brand new 120V Gicar here that i can send to you - please just email me to confirm that you want me to send it to the same address that i sent your machine to
if it solves the issue you can pay for it, if it doesnt you'll have a new Gicar for free so you wont be any worse off
Reiss, I took the water tank out, The alarm went on (very faint beep). I cleaned the tank. Wiped the contacts which looked nice and shiny. After putting the tank back in, the alarm stopped, and the pump started for about 10 seconds. While the machine was warming up, the pump went on again for a lot longer than 10 seconds. I ran water through the group and the hot water tap, and the pump did not run. Then I started getting steam out of the hot water tap so I shut down the machine.
Yes, it is a 120V machine. I w I'll be in Seattle till Sunday so you want to wait a few days before sending the gicar...your shipping is usually very fast! Appreciate your help. I sure this will get figured out.
Reiss, Hold off on the gicar. I've had the machine on for a while now while packing. I've been pulling water through the group and water tap every 5-10 minutes, and now the pump is responding normally. Maybe it did have something to do with the tank connections?!?! Rob
the two probes in the bottom of the water box will cause an alarm to sound and prevent the heating element from turning on if an electrical charge is unable to flow from one to the other (carried by the electrically charged ions in the water) - i.e. the two probes in the bottom of the water box are acting as a simple switch
so if that switch was 'open', even if you couldn't hear the alarm sounding it would prevent the heating element coming on and so the boiler would cool and lose pressure
i think greg's idea to check all and every connection is probably a good one, especially the connections that carry the high current load like the on/off toggle switch, the connections onto the immersion element, and the connections onto the Sirai pressure switch as if these are slightly loose the get hot and then expand further. Unplug the machine at the wall first
have a good holiday, we can pick it up on your return
Reiss, Yep, doesn't make sense to me either, but it seems to be working now. I'll make espresso in the morning and see how it goes! Then it's off to Seattle for the rest of the week. Rob
it is possible to get a droplet of water 'bridging' between the level probe and the horizontal HX tube, tricking the level probe into thinking the water level is higher than what it really is; the cure for this is a gentle bend in the probe away from the hx tube so the gap is too wide for a water droplet to bridge
why i haven't mentioned it earlier is it makes no sense that it has not caused an issue for you any time in the last two years
Reiss is obviously absolutely correct about the buzzer sounding if it was an apparent low water fault in the water tank, and as he said low water would also inhibit the element switching on, so we can rule out a fault in the water tank circuit.
This again brings us back to fault either in the Gicar, or the water level probe.
I think you can further isolate this by disconnecting the yellow wire from the Gicar that Reiss mentioned earlier (preferably when the boiler is cold) and turning the power on.
If the fault is with the water level probe the pump will now run. If the pump is allowed to continue running it will now overfill the boiler, over-pressure the pressure relief valve on top of the boiler and water will flow out until the pump times out.
If the fault is with the Gicar the symptoms will persist.
I can only think of two possible issues with the water level probe. Either a water droplet or something is bridging the gap between the tip of the probe and the HX tube as mentioned above, or the insulation has failed where the probe passes through the boiler.
Comments
(Reiss, please amend or delete this post if I’ve made a mistake or you disagree)
Electrically what’s in the Londinium.
Power In
Mains Switch
Pressure Stat.
Boiler Element
Water Level Probe
Water Tank with Sensor
Gicar (Brains of the system)
Pump
Solenoid Valve.
2 or 3 lights
Bunch of wires with connectors.
What do we know?
The boiler is working. Therefor the power, switch, pressure stat, boiler and associated wiring are OK.
The water level probe appears to be OK. (The pump should only run when this circuit is open hence a bad connection or open circuit will cause the boiler to overfill)
When the pump comes on the blue light comes on, so I expect this means the solenoid valve is OK?
What’s left?
What’s happens if there is a bad contact on the bottom of the water tank, or the water tank sensors need cleaning? I can’t remember if the buzzer sounds as my machine is plumbed, but this would stop the pump.
As the Blue light only comes on when the pump is operating correctly it tends to indicate the pump is OK?
Its possible there is a loose connection on one of the wires which would cause the problem, but these are low current circuits so its unlikely, but then its easy to check all the wires feel secure and are correctly attached. (Please make sure the machine is unplugged before touching anything)
What’s left? Really only the Gicar
What would I do?
Double check again all the connections and wires associated with the water level probe, but an open circuit will cause the boiler to overfill. Make sure the sensor wire isn’t touching the inside of the boiler or shorted on anything.
Check the wires and contacts associated with the water tank sensor, especially the contacts on the bottom of the tank. (Would the buzzer sound if there was a problem here?)
Replace the Gicar, but I think these are normally very reliable.
Greg
I confirmed that the probe is pushed all the way down. I disconnected the appropriate yellow wire from the gicar and pushed it all the way back in. I started the machine back up. After 10-15 minutes the pump ran for about 38 seconds. After the machine came up to temperature I ran at least 500cc water through the hot water tap. The pump did not start. Then I ran some water through the group head...the pump did not start. I ran more water through the hot water tap, but then after getting some water, I started getting steam instead of water and I shut the machine down.
This is what I remember after 2 years with the machine.: when I turn it on, after a few seconds the pump runs for 3 or 5 seconds. After running water through the group or through the hot water tap, the pump will usually run for 3 or 5 seconds. When pulling a shot, it was pretty common for the pump to run for 3 or 4 seconds during the beginning of the shot. None of this is currently happening. Instead, the pump randomly comes on for much longer than 10 seconds. Has anyone else experienced this type of problem?
I probably won't have much more time to work on this. We fly out to Seattle tomorrow.
Could it be the Gicar?
Rob
thanks for contributing as always
the reason ive not come up with a solution yet is no previous customer has reported this issue to me on a machine that is two years old and has previously functioned without incident as far as i am aware
like you, when you have eliminated everything it cant be it points to the Gicar having developed a fault, but like you say this is extremely rare - i think ive seen 2 faulty gicar (and they were on brand new machines) with more than 1000 machines sold. Gicar can cook themselves over time but this is not that kind of situation either as there would be visible burn marks on the Gicar terminals
as a pedantic point of clarification the blue light is wired to indicate that the gicar has opened the solenoid, and in a tank fed machine the pump is wired into that circuit to also turn on when the solenoid is opened, so it seems that the gicar is not responding to the level probe in a timely manner
kind regards
reiss.
im assuming you have a 120V machine? (please confirm)
if so i have a brand new 120V Gicar here that i can send to you - please just email me to confirm that you want me to send it to the same address that i sent your machine to
if it solves the issue you can pay for it, if it doesnt you'll have a new Gicar for free so you wont be any worse off
kind regards
reiss.
I took the water tank out, The alarm went on (very faint beep). I cleaned the tank. Wiped the contacts which looked nice and shiny. After putting the tank back in, the alarm stopped, and the pump started for about 10 seconds. While the machine was warming up, the pump went on again for a lot longer than 10 seconds. I ran water through the group and the hot water tap, and the pump did not run. Then I started getting steam out of the hot water tap so I shut down the machine.
Yes, it is a 120V machine. I w I'll be in Seattle till Sunday so you want to wait a few days before sending the gicar...your shipping is usually very fast! Appreciate your help. I sure this will get figured out.
Rob
(Please don’t publish it here)
Hold off on the gicar. I've had the machine on for a while now while packing. I've been pulling water through the group and water tap every 5-10 minutes, and now the pump is responding normally. Maybe it did have something to do with the tank connections?!?!
Rob
the two probes in the bottom of the water box will cause an alarm to sound and prevent the heating element from turning on if an electrical charge is unable to flow from one to the other (carried by the electrically charged ions in the water) - i.e. the two probes in the bottom of the water box are acting as a simple switch
so if that switch was 'open', even if you couldn't hear the alarm sounding it would prevent the heating element coming on and so the boiler would cool and lose pressure
i think greg's idea to check all and every connection is probably a good one, especially the connections that carry the high current load like the on/off toggle switch, the connections onto the immersion element, and the connections onto the Sirai pressure switch as if these are slightly loose the get hot and then expand further. Unplug the machine at the wall first
have a good holiday, we can pick it up on your return
reiss.
Yep, doesn't make sense to me either, but it seems to be working now. I'll make espresso in the morning and see how it goes! Then it's off to Seattle for the rest of the week.
Rob
why i haven't mentioned it earlier is it makes no sense that it has not caused an issue for you any time in the last two years
This again brings us back to fault either in the Gicar, or the water level probe.
I think you can further isolate this by disconnecting the yellow wire from the Gicar that Reiss mentioned earlier (preferably when the boiler is cold) and turning the power on.
If the fault is with the water level probe the pump will now run. If the pump is allowed to continue running it will now overfill the boiler, over-pressure the pressure relief valve on top of the boiler and water will flow out until the pump times out.
If the fault is with the Gicar the symptoms will persist.
I can only think of two possible issues with the water level probe. Either a water droplet or something is bridging the gap between the tip of the probe and the HX tube as mentioned above, or the insulation has failed where the probe passes through the boiler.
This is an intriguing problem.
Greg
Rob
Rob
welcome back, let us know if things change
kind regards
reiss.