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Londinium I or Rocket Giotto Evoluzione 2 ?
> Hello everybody
I am new on this forum and like a lot of beginners in espresso world, I need some information.
Beginner in the espresso world, I'd like to buy a Londinium 1 or a Rocket Giotto Evoluzione 2 (my father got one).
But usually in all coffeegeek forum, everybody say that ALL espresso lever machine are not easy to use specially for beginners.
Do you really think Londinium 1 can be an espresso machine for beginners? Is it really easy to make a good shot or is it necessary to have a "good training" with espresso machine?
I am hesitate to buy a Londinium 1 or a Rocket Giotto. So please can you give me the big difference between those 2 machine. Is it really a different taste in the cup? Is one easier to use than the other?
> Thank you very much and sorry again to ask you those question but in France, there are plenty owners of Rocket but nobody knows Londinium1 except maybe one or two persons!
> Best regards
> Jean-philippe
I am new on this forum and like a lot of beginners in espresso world, I need some information.
Beginner in the espresso world, I'd like to buy a Londinium 1 or a Rocket Giotto Evoluzione 2 (my father got one).
But usually in all coffeegeek forum, everybody say that ALL espresso lever machine are not easy to use specially for beginners.
Do you really think Londinium 1 can be an espresso machine for beginners? Is it really easy to make a good shot or is it necessary to have a "good training" with espresso machine?
I am hesitate to buy a Londinium 1 or a Rocket Giotto. So please can you give me the big difference between those 2 machine. Is it really a different taste in the cup? Is one easier to use than the other?
> Thank you very much and sorry again to ask you those question but in France, there are plenty owners of Rocket but nobody knows Londinium1 except maybe one or two persons!
> Best regards
> Jean-philippe
Comments
1) I have one of the first Londinium 1 machines. I use it everyday, and it is a joy to use. Unlike manual lever machines (like the Pavoni) it is very easy to use (once you know the basic principles) and very forgiving, very consistent. Rockets are beautiful machines but are no easier to use.
2) Yes, I (and probably every other lever owner) do believe lever machines, particularly commercial lever groups, bring out much more flavour in the cup. Yes, the difference is noticeable. What you can't do on a lever is tweak the temperature like you can on a dual-boiler machine, but few see this as a disadvantage because the Londinium seems to get the best out of the coffee anyway.
I'm not someone who likes constantly fiddling around with all the parameters. I like to get up in the morning, switch the machine on and know in a few minutes I'm going to get a great espresso. The L1 delivers !
Hello Jean-philippe, I have a Londinium, I own one of the very first batch from November 2012... I am also a new user of espresso machinery, the L1 is my first machine.
I found that using one reasonably well requires a little practice but the main thing is that like driving, there are three or four tasks that need to be performed well, in relation to each other... And this can seem very daunting until... suddenly you realise you are doing things right.
Like your Edith Piaf, I have No Regrets buying from Londinium.
I do not know whether the L1 is harder or easier to use than a Rocket, but I know at least one L1 owner that has both, so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't contribute shortly.
best wishes
Stephen.
Now I never knew Piaf was a Londinium customer.
You live and learn...
Its a very capable yet forgiving machine...requiring little, relative to other types of espresso machines in the same general price class, operator skill. Unlike my former HX machine (Pasquini Livia 90)...the LI is super simple to use day-in and day-out and provides very consistent output. However, like all espresso machines, it can't make up for poor barista skills/puck preparation.
By that, I mean whether you own an L1 or Rocket, your coffee will be poor on both if your knowledge and shot preparation and extractions are wrong!
I already got a good grinder (I hope) it's a Fiorenzato F4E Nano, so at least, it's a point OK.
Roland Denning, you said, like all lever machine, to use the L1, I have to follow the basic principles.
Is there somewhere on the forum or somewhere else a page describing point after point each stage from the Londinium switch on to the shot (just one) in the cup ?
And please, apolozige for my english. I didn't speak or write english since 20 years!
I am very fond of my Rocket Giotto V2 and have modified it to have 2 OPV's so I can switch between 2 different brew pressures during an extraction, thus coming somewhat close to the pressure profile of the famed lever machines. On some very expensive commercial machines, there is complicated electronic/hydraulics to try to come very close to the pressure profile that the classic levers all have.
The LONDINIUM is in my home/workplace, the Rocket is located at my girl friend's place where I am often after work and at the start of the day.
When I bought the Rocket, the LONDINIUM was not yet designed and produced. Otherwise I would probably first have bought a LONDINIUM and then later a Rocket.
If you can get a plumbed-in machine, the silence of the LONDINIUM (with just the clicks of the pressostat and the sound of water heating up in the boiler for a few seconds every cycle) is beautiful, especially during espresso extraction.
Both are easy machines in their own way, I think.
As your taste develops, you may become more demanding of your equipment. In my experience, if you have a wonderful bean beautifully roasted and an excellent grinder, both machines can deliver a terrific cup. If the beans or the grind are less optimal, I feel the Rocket is forgiving and mostly delivers an enjoyable espresso all the same. The LONDINIUM, in my experience, delivers an optimal cup but tells your tastebuds very clearly what was there.
It's almost like a super hifi amp and speakers. if there's something sub-optimal in the recording, it will tell you crisp and clear while providing the best possible sound under the circumstances. Another, also beautfully built sound system would maybe cover up the glitches for you and deliver a more mellow sound, super enjoyable and very fair to the performance of the musicians.
I would expect that out of the box, both machines would surprise you with their quality and joy of operation.
It would pain me to part with the Rocket. Parting with the LONDINIUM is out of the question.
I feel very lucky to be able to have and use both on a daily basis (and the La Pavoni when I am traveling).
In The Netherlands, I am lucky to personaly know the dealer of the Rocket who is an enthusiast also in modifying and improving the machine.
The LONDINIUM customer is unique in having the manufacturer very close in other ways, like this forum, the website, blog, et cetera. Innovations that my local dealer / friend can apply to the Rocket, are also delivered to the LONDINIUM by Reiss, like the new steam wand that I received today and installed smoothly, the wooden handles that I didn't have at first, et cetera.
Women seem particularly impressed by that massive lever...
(of course that might be a little too much to live up to)
I saw your own blog, your nice pictures about coffee and I have no doubt about that: you know what you are taking about.
So I am waiting for some others information about L1 and I think I am going to listen to you : order a L1 rather than a Rocket.
But I ask the same question that last time: do you know where I can find the procedure, step by step, from L1 switch on to the shot in the cup.
And I think it could be interesting for many other people who want to buy a L1
Thank you
Jean Philippe,
Whether or not this is the official operating procedure I can not say; but its how I use my LI.
I have my LI on a timer so it turns on and off at set times. Generally my LI has been on for at least an hour before I get to shot pulling time. Its been said the LI can be hot and ready in as little time as 10-15 minutes...
1) Before I grind the beans I pull approximately 50-75ml of water out of the group per Reiss and other's recommendation. Because I do not leave the portafilter handle in the machine this also serves to preheat the portafilter. NOTE: BE SURE TO HOLD THE LEVER FAST ON THE RETURN...WITHOUT COFFEE IN THE GROUP/PORTAFILTER THERE IS ZERO RESISTANCE!!!
2) Dose the filter basket (I have cut the basket retainer spring down to permit easy removal of the basket from the portafilter handle).
3) Probably not necessary but I will give the steam wand a little release so I can time the lever pull so the p-stat is at the top of its adjustment range.
4) Basket of ground beans inserted in the portafilter handle then immediately inserted in the LI group.
5) Slowly pull the lever down all the way and count 3-5 seconds.
6) Slowly and deliberately move the lever vertically until the spring engages then hands off.
7) Time the espresso shot
8) After the shot has been poured I leave the portafilter attached to the machine for approximately 5-10 minutes so to prevent blow up or "sneeze" as they say
9) Empty the bean cake from the portafilter and reinsert to group
10) Flush another 50-75ml
11) After machine recovers to temp then repeat as often as desired.
There is another thread here about daily cleaning of the LI, which is very straightforward and simple (especially compared to the former HX machine I owned).
Probably missed something but this should get you in the general ballpark for daily usage.
Dan
Last question to all L1 owners : In a blind test, with exactly the same beans of course, can you really see with coffee comes from a L1 and which coffe comes from a HX machine ?
I could get a very good to even a "God Shot" out of my former Pasquini Livia 90 (HX); however it wasn't consistent at all even with me doing the flush dance. I never had them side by side with the exact same bean and roast date. However using my stalwort beans, Adventure Coffee Roasting's Sunrise Breakfast Blend (the most consistent bean I've found: Year over year), which I know very, very well the Livia 90 was cable of producing a very enjoyable shot on par with my LI. The difference came in the form of predictable repeatability: The Livia 90 was, at most times, a bit of a crap shoot whereas the LI's shots are very predictably repeatable.
Like you I'm curious to hear other's input.
You might check out the Home Barista website. They have quite a few articles on tamping, distributing the grounds, etc. aimed at beginners (noobs). I have owned a variety of machines (HX, double boiler, and manual lever) and it is much easier to use the Londinium than it was any of the others. I like simplicity (perhaps elegance) in the making of an espresso.
The main problem with the L1 is that once you have one, you won't be able to fantasize about a better machine because you already own it. Michael
The other thing is that while my previous machine made it about as easy to pull good shots as a HX machine can get (electrically heated group, PID) it's easier on the L1 and I'm more consistently getting great shots than I was on the HX.
I'd already reduced the other variables to consistency quite thoroughly - I weighed my beans, single dosed, used the LONDINIUM button tamper (which I think is an ideal tool for aiding in consistency), timed my shots, used VST baskets, etc. All of things helped introduce more consistency. None by themselves were a single deciding factor, but what every one of them did was to move my average up a notch.
So with my HX machine, my shot range might look like this for ten shots:
1 sink shot
2 were drinkable
4 were good
2 were great
1 was exceptional
That's not a bad run at all. Cafes wish they could have that level of consistency. My L1 on the other hand is more like this:
1 drinkable
2 good
5 great
2 exceptional
What's left is my grinder, which is fairly sub-par for the task but gets the job done.
My wife on the other hand, who is a bit of a super-taster but only drinks big milky coffees thinks the difference is much greater - she's somewhat blown away by the L1.
Reading all those nice words about this machine, I guess I will be stupid buying a Rocket Giotto instead of a L1 !!
I will wait for some others feedback and the order will be on the way.
The L1 will give you really great espresso , with a simple technique . You can not underestimate the fun and joy of pulling the lever. I can't describe it adequately you need to try it for yourself. Really you do !
Yes if you have bad distribution and grind , then your espresso will never be god like , but thats the same for any machine .
When i want to make a drink , i rock up to it , prepare a basket , quick flush to warm the cup , and away we go……..
Many people love the rocket and its shapes and design. I still buy vinyl, i look the big metal box in my kitchen with wooden handles .
I wouldn't be without it .
Linked below is a clip i made for another coffee forum, forgive my mistakes and technique but perhaps it will help you decide
I stated "5-10 minutes" because that's how long it takes me to glance at the morning paper and go back for round 2 :D
For normal to loose grind setting the portafilter only needs 30-seconds or thereabouts to allow removal without sneezing. If, however, I'm using a finer grind (not typical but every once in a while I get in the mood) then it does take considerably longer, albeit still well inside of 10-minutes, to clear without sneezing all over.
So...when I get to the LI in the morning for the first time I just give it a quick 50-75ml flush. This may or may not be important to a good first shot...its just the regiment I've fallen into (and I'm still experimenting...).
Then after the water has fully vacated the puck I remove the bean cake and give it a repeat flush just as above mainly to flush bean grind sediment from the group. Then its ready to go for my 2nd espresso/capp of the morning.
Way less fuss to get a good shot with the L-I, just takes more real estate in the kitchen. Thankfully my wife is pretty tolerant to my hobbies.
Are you really saying that, in the cup, the result is better with a L1 rather than a GS/3 or a R58 ?
If it's the case, I know a lot of french coffee geaks who will fall of their chair !!
The L-I is so simple that if something should fail it is easy to fix and a lot of room inside to do it. Try that with the GS/3 or the R-58! I particularly like not having electronics underneath the machine where water will eventually drip.
Less fuss wins my vote!
L'essence!
Italian blend very roasted (maybe a little bit bitter) or pure origine little bit roasted (but maybe acid) ?
And is it possible to change the setting of P-Stat, according coffee bean that I prefer ?
Maybe the problem of L1 is that you have to choose a kind of coffee bean one time for all.
No pid on the L1, so I guess you cannot make one day an italian blend very roasted, and the next day, make a pure origine just a little roasted?
S.
My advice for you is not to read and think and reason so much and not wait for 5 more people to give their opinion, but to go out and taste some coffee and see how you like coffee from a place where they understand levers, and compare it to other espresso that you know.
Although not being able to adjust temperatures like you can with a PID may seem like a disadvantage, I think most (all?) L1 owners will agree that the machine seems to get the best out of all the beans you put through it but also bring out the deficiencies of beans - for instance, if a bean is over-roasted, you will really notice it. Reiss began to roast his beans a little lighter after developing the L1, perhaps because of this reason.
So this goes a little against the PID philosophy of tweaking the temperature (or, at least, playing around with numbers) for different types of bean. Are there certain very light and difficult beans that would work better in a PID machine? Perhaps, but I haven't found them. The inbuilt temperature/pressure profile of a lever groups works its magic, and it's a magic that seems to outweigh the benefits of fine temperature tuning.