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LONDINIUM tamper best (4 me) with tapered basket
A short clip explaining why I prefer a tapered basket with my LONDINIUM tamper. First, the tapered basket has a smaller cluster of holes which makes them fit within the circle of the naked PF. Second, if tamping is less than 100% perfect on a basket with straight walls, on my setup at least the extraction has some early drops, indicating there' some (minor) channeling along the outside of the straight basket.
Comments
my experiences are consistent with yours
I'm wondering if a convex tamper would give a different result
I did try using a convex tamper when I first got my L1 and it didn't work very well.
In the last 5-6 months I am only using VST ridgeless baskets and have no problem with a 58.4 flat base.
Maybe the original L1 ridged basket is more forgiving ?
Kfir.
Thanks Kfir!
In the video I use the tapered ASI-VST basket, which works as simple as the original Londinium basket.
I would surely order one and experiment with it. I am convinced it will be as effective as my current convex tamper.
[url=https://www.espressomaschinendoctor.de/SiebtraegerZubehoer/ASI-VST-Siebe/ASI-VST-Sieb-2-Tassen-12-18-Gramm::18060.html]https://www.espressomaschinendoctor.de/SiebtraegerZubehoer/ASI-VST-Siebe/ASI-VST-Sieb-2-Tassen-12-18-Gramm::18060.html[/url
i know you're a busy guy, but if you ever had a moment could you please post a clip of your dose & tamp routine?
I'm ashamed to admit it, but i fall in the group who finds straight sided baskets (irrespective of brand) more challenging than a tapered basket & I'm not too proud to admit that I'm sure i could learn something from you when it comes to getting the best from VST baskets
kind regards
reiss.
Busy days now since I am moving to a new apartment soon and this on top of a demanding job and 2 kids...
I'll try to shoot something with my phone soon but I cannot get even close to Frans's standards ;-)
Kfir.
In Chapter 3, "The Science ad Theory of Percolation and Extraction" he discusses "Basket Shape and Extraction" and he explains why a tapred basket is (in his view, to his vast experience) better if you can find any. You get a more even extraction. He illustrates this comparing a single tapered basket with a straight walled double basket.
Luckily, we now can chose a double basket *with* a tapered wall.
See also: http://www.scottrao.com/
I have been using a slightly convex (not Euro Curved) tamper for the single shot basket and it seems to tamp better. I would like to try the more aggressive Euro Curved tamper.
I have been using a flat tamper with the VST or Espresso Parts large (18-22g) straight walled baskets and it seems to work. I don't usually go for doses that high unless I am making a milk drink or pouring shots over ice cream. With the tampered basket I keep the dose between 15-16g with a flat tamper.
Maybe I should try the shallow curved tamper on the larger baskets!?!?
But yes, tapered baskets are easy. But somehow the shape is like some kind of cheating.
as i understand it frans is in agreement with you
what he is talking about is the 'proper' VST baskets - these have no curvature where the sides meet the base, unlike the IMS basket
my experience of using the 'proper' VST baskets and the flat LONDINIUM tamper is consistent with Frans' experience, but Kfir seems to suggest it doesn't need to be this way if you do the job properly, which i why i am keen to see his video on dosing, tamping & pull a shot with a 'proper' VST basket and a flat faced tamper
i assume the IMS-VST tampers are purely using the VST brand under licence to convey a sense of quality and differentiate them from the other IMS baskets produced. does anyone know the story?
I am dosing ~15g in a VST 18g ridgeless basket for my usual double shots, the tamper is a Torr XS with a 58.4 mm flat base.
The shot is a bit fast (forgot to adjust the grind while doing it in hurry) and pre-infusion was a bit long since I was focusing in filming
I always single dose with by beloved K10 Pro Barista, the doser does a fantastic job distributing the grounds in the basket and I just settle it down and tamp.
Kfir.
Your results are conclusive, I'll give you that
The only differences I that really stand out are you put 15g in an 18g VST
Whereas I have been putting 15g in a 15g VST - silly me!
What led you to use an 18g for 15?
While your results are indisputable, I don't really buy into the idea of the coffee needing that much headspace, but perhaps I'm wrong
All i can do is try 15 in an 18 I guess
Other than that I am using a K10 fresh - I dump the first 2 doses to get into fresh coffee and the third one I keep and simply tamp the cone flat
But, just has Frans notes, it tends to produce a donut extraction
I really appreciate the time you took to take this clip Kfir
I have found it insightful and I will report back on how I get on
All other forum members - I would like to think this thread grows to become the longest and most viewed and stays at or near the top
If you are struggling, or knocking out exceptional results, or anywhere in between, please post a clip like kfirs
It doesn't have to be pretty, just document each step in your prep
Reiss
- dosing less than the designed amount is more successful than dosing to the designed amount or overdosing, without question. I don't know why this is, but it is.
- I found nutating was also essential. I just couldn't get a flat puck to save myself otherwise
- a bit of light tapping and wrapping is also key to try to get the distribution right, as well as a bit of finger grooming. Simply shoving a tamper on a mound of coffee from the K10F was not cutting it
- a long, slow extraction has a less chance of success than a faster one. A 25s-30s lever travel is the sweet spot in all respects
- if the extraction doesn't cone within 10 secs maximum, you've generally lost it. And the taste reflects this
All in all, it seems that the vst straight walled baskets needs an absolutely perfect technique. If you nail it, its fabulous. If you don't, its average.
Why ? well I had a really nice pump machine for 2.5 years (Elektra T1) and this machine was really "allergic" to high doses.
A double shot without enough headspace immediately caused channeling, besides that I always preferred a more subtle sweet balanced shot over that big gooey harshed flavored one you get from a ristretto with a 20g dose and a good way to get that is by grinding finer and lowering the dose.
As I noted before I mostly drink single shots from a 7g VST basket, I dose 8.5g and use a special funnel and a 41 mm tamper.
This also leaves a large headroom and the results are great.
The L1 works much better with low doses and it really resembles other spring levers I owned especially the Ponte Vecchio Lusso and the Elektra MCAL which implements a similar low pre infusion by boiler pressure.
Offcurse there is more than just headspace, the distribution of grounds in the basket is very important as well and this is why I preferred the K10 PB over the Fresh - you don't need to mix the grounds to get a good shot, the doser does that for you.
The VST baskets are less forgiving, I can easily pull a much nicer shot with the Espresso Parts HQ baskets.
This is why i like them, the are not "covering" mistakes and once you get used to them they give consistent and great results.
Kfir.
I had both grinders side by side for several months until I decided to sell the K10 Fresh.
The Fresh is probably one of the best doserless conical grinders available today, it's fast and quiet and it gives out precise dosing as long as you keep enough beans in the hopper.
But this is a doserless grinder so you know that there will be a little bit of static, a little bit of clumps and grounds distribution will never be optimal without some mixing of the grounds in the basket.
The K10 Pro Barista grind output is more fluffy and without clumps, the doser does a great job and sweeps out the coffee very efficiently.
You also get a big plus since it distributes the grounds very well.
Some pictures I took long time ago show how fluffy and clump-less the grind of the Pro Barista is:
After settling the grounds in the basket with a few knocks:
Another big plus with the K10 PB is that you can single dose with it easily and eliminate waste and it's very easy for a home roaster like me to switch between coffees without having to grind the leftovers.
Also no retention - easier grind calibration as well.
I guess in the end it's a matter of personal choice, I don't mind the extra work required to weigh the beans and to do 2-3 bumping & brushing to clear the grinder chute from leftovers.
After getting use to it, it takes no more than a minute or so.
For a few cups a day it's perfect, in a more demanding environment the Fresh will be much more suitable.
Hope it helps to understand my point of view.
Kfir.
Thank you very much for the post - very interesting!
Grinder is a K10F dispensing around 16.5g in a straight walled 18g vst. Took about 10 secs or so for the extraction to cone out which is a longer than usual, but certainly acceptable.
Coffee is an Ethiopian yirg.
Other key takeaway is that I need to lose some weight.
Edit: vid won't upload. Will attempt to figure it out later
It also may help to prevent grounds from sticking to the basket walls.
I don't thing that it's very useful for clumps though, if the coffee is not distributed in the basket properly channeling will occur.
Kfir.
Still cant get my vid to work - was rubbish anyway. Franz would have been appalled.
If the video clip is too big you can convert it to MP4 by using "Windows Movie Maker" and just saving it as a "youtube" clip.
The MP4 format is about a 1/4 of the original file size and easier to upload.
I for once will be happy to watch it and give you my feedback, I'm sure others will be too...
Kfir.
Yes! Me too.
Although there has been a recent movement in the pro barista circles against any type of knocking of the partially tamped portafilter I typically will give it a soft vertical tap on the counter to settle the stray fines on the vertical sides of the basket...seems to work OK for me with less to no spritzing/channelling.
YMMV.
Thanks! I've been wondering about that word nutating so now I know.
In the other thread about L1 routine videos I posted this one I just made. It has an attempt at 'nutating' but need more practice.