Fellow L1 Owners - What is considered 'normal' shot volume?

Unknown

I've been a proud L1 owner for almost two months now and experienced the machine pre-custom seals and post custom seals.

I'm also rotating between using the Mahlkonig Peak and Monolith Flat grinders.

I'm dialing in for shots that yield aprox 30 grams in 30 seconds of extraction. I'm also pre-infusing for 10 to 15 seconds (so total extraction time is around 45 to 50 seconds).

What I've found is as follows, but super curious to know what others experience:

Darker roasts tend to soak up more liquid and consequently have less liquid volume.
Lighter roasts have the opposite effect.

For example, Blue Bottle Hayes Valley blend, which is on the darker side yields just around 43 grams.
Stumptown Hairbender (lighter than Hayes Valley) is closer to 47 grams
and Sweatleaf's slapshot blend (local NYC roaster, super light and very fine grind) is hitting 50+grams.

I also notice that shots on the Monolith typically produce about a gram or two less than the Peak (and lever catches a little higher), but I have no idea why.

Interested to hear what kind of results everybody else is getting?

Unknown

forgot the most important piece of info - i'm dosing at 18g in using a VST ridgeless basket

Dan Tochterman

forgot the most important piece of info - i'm dosing at 18g in using a VST ridgeless basket

Unknown

Do you use a precise weight/time scale like an Acaia?

Your observations are more about roasters and their roast profiles than about espresso machine and since very few roasters disclose the roast profile and you're stuck with "light" or "dark" it remains mostly guesswork.

It is possible to discern all hues between "light" and "dark" using a http://my-tonino.com but even then, a same color can be the result of a short or a longer roast so while that instrument does tell yo exact what color you are talking about, how this was done remains known by the roaster.

That said, it's obvious that unroasted beans absorb water very slow and fully roasted beans can soak up water faster since the cells are more opened up / cracked. For grinds the same is true.

And a little more developed beans' grinds can soak up water a little more easily as the structure is more open.

Frans Goddijn

Do you use a precise weight/time scale like an Acaia?

Your observations are more about roasters and their roast profiles than about espresso machine and since very few roasters disclose the roast profile and you're stuck with "light" or "dark" it remains mostly guesswork.

It is possible to discern all hues between "light" and "dark" using a http://my-tonino.com but even then, a same color can be the result of a short or a longer roast so while that instrument does tell yo exact what color you are talking about, how this was done remains known by the roaster.

That said, it's obvious that unroasted beans absorb water very slow and fully roasted beans can soak up water faster since the cells are more opened up / cracked. For grinds the same is true.

And a little more developed beans' grinds can soak up water a little more easily as the structure is more open.

Reiss Gunson

hi dan

that's right. you can compensate for it by varying the pre-infusion time - give the darker roasts a little less and the lighter roasts a little more

only use as much pre-infusion as you need to achieve a saturated puck

depending on your ambient temperature yo may be able to wind your boiler pressure up a little to increase the pre-infusion pressure - an increase of just 0.1 bar still has a noticeable effect

kind regards

reiss

Dan Tochterman

Hi Frans!

yes, I'm using the Acaia Lunar to weigh/time my shots.

the observation is somewhat about the roasters, but for me, since its my first lever machine, its unique to my experience with the L1. On a pump machine, the experience was completely different for me in regards to shot volume and working with a 'limited' amount of liquid so to speak.

I've been catching up on all of the forums topics, but I haven't seen any post or individual go into detail about this topic. I was curious to know how others are faring....

Dan Tochterman

@Reiss,

I was actually reading about the pstat pressure in the permanent file yesterday and decided mine might be set too high. the ambient temp in my place has actually been quite mild and the machine is positioned in a closed corner under a cabinet. I'm also wondering if the weaker crema i've been experiencing with the Monolith was due to this as well....so last night I actually lowered the pressure from a max value of 1.35 to 1.25

still too early to speak to the results, but will keep you posted!

Dan Tochterman

update! the blue bottle is actually just over 40g

here is a video from earlier...blue bottle hayes valley, 18g in, using a Monolith flat and about 10 sec pre infusion.

puck actually looks good here, usually got a little puddle on top.

Reiss Gunson

thanks for posting dan - great quality on the video

if you leave the PF attached to the group for about 30 seconds after the lever stops moving up the puck should be dry (unless you are grinding super fine)

also, while you are correct to be pulling the lever down smoothly you can let it come up quick

that doesnt mean take your hand of it and let it fly up, but almost that quick

kind regards

reiss.

Timothy Nakhla

Volume is an interesting one hey.

I get mixed results depending on the bean. Sometimes I can get 45g+ by getting every drop. Other times it's 30g only.

Must depend on the roast and bean type?

Reiss Gunson

roast & bean obviously have an impact. but the big one is dose & achieving complete pre-infusion.

the bigger the dose the more pre-infusion you need

a large dose with insufficient pre-infusion will see the piston come down and drive the water above the puck into a dry/partially puck, which in turn will absorb a good portion of the water that was above the puck, which in turn means a reduced volume of water comes out the bottom of the portafilter into your cup

a saturated puck means that when the piston comes down every mL of water above the puck must displace a mL of water from the puck in order to enter the area occupied by the puck. this means you end up with a much larger volume of coffee in your cup. this is because you had a much greater volume of water below the raised piston

i.e. bottom of piston, a volume of air below the piston, a volume of water below the air and above the puck, a additional volume of water sitting in the puck. if complete pre-infusion (a saturated puck) has not been achieved then this additional volume of water in the puck will be reduced, or even approaching zero if you have ground super fine and combined it with a large dose: this will produce a high lever grab even with out new custom seals, but this does not mean the seals are at fault; the machine is simply being misused

Timothy Nakhla

How does one determine sufficient pre-infusion with say a common 18g dose? (thinking of the 18g VST basket here)

Reiss Gunson

well you should see the holes across the bottom of the basket beginning to 'sweat'

this is where distribution becomes important - if the basket was poorly prepared and you get water flow through a pathway in the puck (channelling) then the water takes the flow of least resistance (through the channel) and it becomes almost impossible to saturate the rest of the puck

good preparation of the basket will guard against channelling and then the puck will saturate evenly throughout

when this happens you will see sweating of the coffee across the entire underside of the portafilter basket

18g is going to take 10-12 seconds to fully pre-infuse on the L1 - you can push this a bit by winding up the boiler pressure a little if the machine is not in a super hot environment

kind regards

reiss.

Matthew Hoffman

Using freshly roasted coffee (even after resting for five to ten days), it can be impossible to reach sweating point at 1.25 bar no matter how long you let the pre-infusion last. (14.5g in 15g VST basket). However, if after say 10 seconds of pre-infusion, you guide the lever up and hold it at the point the sweating occurs, you can re-cock the spring by pulling the lever back down and then releasing it in the normal way. This results in the lever catching lower than otherwise. This manoeuvre is sometimes called a Fellini.
Matt