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LR changes regarding temperature?
Hi,
I am looking for the best possible home solution for evaluating roasts and making (silent) espresso in the morning. After testing several machines I can say to prefer the taste of a lever machine. My question regarding the LR would be:
1) Is there is now a need to flush before brewing an espresso after a longer idle time due to the HX? It seems there are some HX which don't require a flush but I don't quite understand why. Is the heat absorbed by the group?
2) Also with the new design a heating flush to get the group faster to brewing temp is not possible anymore. Is this correct? How long would it take the machine to be up and running for a "prefect" espresso? Do I need to do anything manually like remove "false" pressure or flush water through the group in order to get the thermo siphon running?
I really hope to not needing to flush a lot because I want the machine to have a nice spot in my living room and not having to empty the drip try several times a day/week because of flushing.
3) If there is a valve which automatically closes after the air is removed from the boiler, where does the steam go? Some machines seem to just blow it off within the casing and accumulate rust over time.
4) In an older post Reiss measured the energy consumption of the machine over two hours (https://ns2.thinksync.com.au/~londes/blog/blog/576/energy-consumption-londinium-i). Is this still up to date?
Last but not least has someone tried the difference in taste between a 9 and a 11 bar spring? Is a 11 bar spring still available for the LR if I would get curious some day? What I heard is that you get more body from 11 bar but it is harder to dial in. I can only compare a Pavoni or Portaspresso to the 11 bar Strega and for now would prefer the 9 bar shot but the Strega was also way too hot in my opinion.
It would be great if some questions could be answered and I hope I am not asking too many dumb questions but some answers are (for me at least) hard to find.
Kind regards,
Nico
I am looking for the best possible home solution for evaluating roasts and making (silent) espresso in the morning. After testing several machines I can say to prefer the taste of a lever machine. My question regarding the LR would be:
1) Is there is now a need to flush before brewing an espresso after a longer idle time due to the HX? It seems there are some HX which don't require a flush but I don't quite understand why. Is the heat absorbed by the group?
2) Also with the new design a heating flush to get the group faster to brewing temp is not possible anymore. Is this correct? How long would it take the machine to be up and running for a "prefect" espresso? Do I need to do anything manually like remove "false" pressure or flush water through the group in order to get the thermo siphon running?
I really hope to not needing to flush a lot because I want the machine to have a nice spot in my living room and not having to empty the drip try several times a day/week because of flushing.
3) If there is a valve which automatically closes after the air is removed from the boiler, where does the steam go? Some machines seem to just blow it off within the casing and accumulate rust over time.
4) In an older post Reiss measured the energy consumption of the machine over two hours (https://ns2.thinksync.com.au/~londes/blog/blog/576/energy-consumption-londinium-i). Is this still up to date?
Last but not least has someone tried the difference in taste between a 9 and a 11 bar spring? Is a 11 bar spring still available for the LR if I would get curious some day? What I heard is that you get more body from 11 bar but it is harder to dial in. I can only compare a Pavoni or Portaspresso to the 11 bar Strega and for now would prefer the 9 bar shot but the Strega was also way too hot in my opinion.
It would be great if some questions could be answered and I hope I am not asking too many dumb questions but some answers are (for me at least) hard to find.
Kind regards,
Nico
Comments
Switching the machine on an hour before you will use it is the best strategy. Even when 'heating flushes' were possible they only marginally shortened the warmup time while complicating the routine.
I do the post-shot flush into a cup so I rarely need to clean the tray.
During warmup the anti-vac blows off some steam for a few seconds and the vapour quickly moves out of the machine since it's getting hot (around 85ºC depending on where you monitor) and a flow of air is constantly coming in through the bottom and leaving out the back of the machine so the tiny volume of water fume vanishes fast. The Zintec frame (galvanised steel, powder coated) will not rust, the copper won't either.
I have measured energy consumption and I forgot how low the cost was. You can use the WEMO device and app to monitor costs.
The double spring group has been tested and discarded as it was not an improvement. Here in The Netherlands some owners of twin spring groups are getting a mod done to get rid of one of the springs to get nearer a more subtle taste in their cup.
On the L-R you can set the pre-infusion pressure higher and this way also get a much higher extraction pressure so there you might be able to discover of you keep liking the shot more as you increase that pressure. My guess is you will prefer something below max.
Frans
I think the LR has a heat exchanger and therefore runs the brewing water through the water tank which is at stream temperature. So if no shot is drawn for a longer period of time the water in the heat exchanger tube will get to steam temperature. Therefore many people suggest to flush the hot water out before brewing a shot. How is this avoided in the LR? Or am I missing something?
Regards,
Nico
If you take the time to work through this forum you will see that we have answered every conceivable question and objection from every self appointed expert ad nauseam over the years; its done, its settled. Now we just make a range of machines that i have no plans to change; the design is settled
We have over 1000 machines in 46 countries and if there was some massive problem it would surely be public knowledge a long time ago in this internet age of instant communication
Our machines are built in England by a company who has been involved with espresso machines for more than 50 years - our products have not been knocked up in a garden shed. They perform for hundreds of users all over the world, many of them demanding, particular, and exacting about their espresso. Many of them owning vastly more expensive espresso machines too, yet they are very pleased with their londinium. Our machines will work for you too.
But as you said it is all engineering and thus there must be a thought process behind the new heat exchanger as well as some calculations. I understand if you want to keep some secrets so it doesn't get copied but water sitting in a separate tube in a boiler heats up to steam temperature. So if there is no mechanism avoiding that, it must be elsewhere cooled down or flushed out of the group. Or did I get the setup of the machine wrong? I just would like to understand that last part which seems to be done different than let’s say with the Strega which overheats the brewing water when idling for longer periods of time. If this was discussed before for the newer LR I would appreciate it if you could send me the link.
Regards,
Nico
there are no secrets in today's world and nothing in our machines is new technology; its old, proven, reliable technology designed and executed well.
the water in the heat exchanger is above 100C but it doesnt boil because it is under a pressure greater than atmospheric pressure. then it leaves the heat exchanger in a 12mm pipe and heads off to the back of the group, then it circulated around the neck of the group and the group sleeve to the limited extent, before heading back to the rear of the group, into another 12mm pipe, which takes it back to the other side of the heat exchanger to have the temperature lifted again. all the time after the water leaves the heat exchanger it is losing energy (cooling) all the way until it finally makes its way back to the other side of the heat exchanger to be heated up again.
when you turn the machine on from cold the water in the heat exchanger starts to heat and expand, pushing out one end of the heat exchanger. at this early stage flow is established in the thermosiphon and the pressure (temperature) difference between the two sides of the thermosiphon (feed and return pipes) is at its greatest.
when the pressure difference is at its greatest the flow in the thermosiphon is at its greatest - the water comes back in the return pipe barely any warmer than ambient initially because the group at ambient temperature has sucked so much energy out of the water entering the group from the thermosiphon feed pipe.
as the group heats up the water in the return pipe of the thermosiphon is much hotter than it initially was; this means the temperature difference between the feed pipe the return pipe on the thermosiphon is much less, which means the pressure difference is much less, which means the rate of flow in the thermosiphon is much less (which means it imparts less energy to the group). the closer the group gets to its equilibrium temperature the closer the fed and return pipes become in temperature, the less the pressure difference between the two pipes, the slower the rate of flow in the thermosiphon until the point is reached where the rate of thermal loss from the group is matched by the rate of thermal input from the thermosiphon (which is now flowing very slowly as the temperature on the return pipe is very close to the temperature on the feed pipe)
there is absolutely no difference in the size of the heat exchanger in the original L1(2012-2016) or the thermosiphon pipes connecting the heat exchanger to the group or the waterways on the group with the current LR. the difference is simply that it is no longer an open thermosiphon. the heat exchanger was originally feed via a trombone shaped pipe from the boiler. we have removed the trombone shaped feed pipe and capped it off. we have then added a manifold so the water supply from the pump can be split into two feeds; the first feeds the boiler via an inlet solenoid just as it did in the original L1(2012-2016), the second line off the manifold feed the heat exchanger. this second line has a pressure switch on it to turn the pump off when the pressure set on this secondary pressure switch is reached, and to turn the pump back on again when the pressure switch senses that the pressure has dropped below the set value.
i can keep writing like this all day, but i believe it is of limited utility in assisting you to reach a purchase decision - its simply burning up my time.
why not FaceTime on [email protected] and i can pull all the panels off the machine and step you through the water flow from tank to cup and answer any questions you may have. i can also make an espresso for you in real time and you can observe the process
kind regards
reiss.
not too much to grumble about
ignore the voltage spikes - they are irrelevant and one day i will work out how to eradicate them
the double hump in the graph of the machine that is up to temperature from the beginning is me pulling a shot and then a short rinse shot afterwards
RickvMe_25MAR17_2017-08-19.pdf
wow, thanks for the detailed reply! I get it now. So you basically pressurize the whole thermo siphon system during preinfusion. The machine seems to be ridiculously stable the whole time. I don't think a facetime meeting is necessary now (also I sold all Apple products some time ago) and I don't want to take up any more of your time.
Now I just need to find a good timing for buying the LR because I am getting married in February and I don't want my fiancé to worry that I like the machine more than her
Many thanks for your time an effort you put in your products and service and I hope to contact you soon with my order.
Kind regards,
Nico
the original L1(2012-2016) utilises an open thermosiphon design, which like the ubiquitous dipper design pre-infusion occurs at boiler pressure, but unlike a dipper it does not over heat when consecutive shots are pulled
next we built the L3/L2/L1(originally L1-P as we were already using the L1 designation at that time) which is our range of plumbed in commercial machines which we designed with a thermosiphon and because the water mains provides a source of pressure without needing a pump we did the obvious thing and closed the heat exchanger so it was no longer boiler fed, but rather cold fed from the mains water line
this allowed me to compare the two different designs. the L3/L2/L1 range of plumbed in machines were clearly superior because i quickly discovered that if you fit a variable pressure reducing valve (regulating valve) and a pressure gauge to the end of the water line that is supplying the machine you can completely alter the performance of the machine 'on the fly'
the standard setup for a heat exchanger & thermosiphon mains fed lever machine is 3 bar of water line pressure and we quickly discovered that we achieved better results with the boiler pressure reduced to a max of 1 bar. this set up makes it unbelievably easy to get the best out of third wave/lightly roasted speciality coffees with very high inlet temperatures but without sacrificing any thermal stability
i also discovered that we had not given up anything because as long as you had fitted the variable pressure reducing valve and gauge you could dial the water line pressure back to about 1.5 bar and the design performs just like the open thermosiphon (dipper that doesnt overheat) design of the L1 (2012-2016) with the reduced inlet temperatures that are better suited to getting the best out of darker, traditional espresso blends with smaller doses and coarser grounds that extract more easily
so, that discovery led me to revisit the L1(2012-2016) - how can we deliver the performance an flexibility of the L3/L2/L1-P design in a plug & play tank fed machine? we couldn't achieve what we wanted with a piston pump as it didn't have a high enough flow rate. at the time there wasnt a rotary pump that was small enough to fit in the space available, but then eventually one was developed and released to market
nothing in the design of the L1(2012-2016) changed beyond the boiler - all the change is in the water supply to the boiler. as i have mentioned, the pump had to change, then we had to add a manifold just as you have on a commercial, mains fed HX machine to split the water supply into two feeds; one to fill the boiler via an inlet solenoid just as it does on the L1(2012-2016) and then a second feed to the heat exchanger, with a second pressure switch added to the machine on that feed to turn the pump on and off as the pressure in that circuit rose and fell
and that's about all there is to tell. the LR delivers identical tasting coffee to our L3/L2/L1 range but without the hassle of plumbing a machine in and the inconvenience of having a whole cupboard underneath the machine filled up with water filtration and softening gear. it is the ultimate plug and play machine.