Consistency

Dan Streight

Most mornings the first shot pulled with my LI reveals a very transparent flavor profile from the beans. This shot is typically layered with distinct flavors and very well to perfectly balanced. However most of the second shots pulled result in a compressed flavor profile where the distinct layers are not so apparent.

So is my 2nd shot palate more insensitive? Have others experienced this issue? Solution(s)?

Here's the sequence of events so you all can weigh in:

First shot
LI time on: >1 hour.
First shot sequence: Pull 60-100ml water from the group; wait until temp is stabilized (usually ~1-minute +/-); 3-5 second preinfusion; pull shot.

Second shot
Typically after about 15-20 minutes from the first shot
After first shot has cleared the portafilter I empty the grounds then pull 60-100ml water flush from the group.
After temp is stabilized I pull a shot using the exact perimeters as #1.

Almost 100% of the time the 2nd shot tastes very compressed, relative to flavor profile.

If I had to guess it seems as if the 2nd shot is a little "hotter" with respect to the resulting taste and overall profile.

Curious to hear other's experiences and comments.

Unknown

Are you flushing before and after the shots? In other words, following the drill that Reiss has put forth?

Frans Goddijn

If you have another machine, you could try it on that one. What I'm thinking now, and I may be wrong, is that even if you had two identical espresso's, the one you taste first thing in the morning will taste different from the next one an hour later.

I enjoy that difference. The last shot of the day, the one in the late afternoon, is a very different one for me also, it's sometimes my favorite.

And in a small specialty cafe where I tasted an indonesian today at lunch, I took care to have the espresso first and the brown bread with melted cheese afterwards. The other way around the salty fatty taste of the cheese kills the coffee.

Kfir

When are you flushing after a shot ? right after or just before preparing the second shot ?
you should pull that short flush just after the shot ends and then no more flushes are required even if the machine idles for another hour.
By using this routine and being consistent with dosing and tamping I did not notice any major difference in taste between shots.

BTW, how do you know when the group has recovered and returned to the initial idle temp ? are you using a thermometer to measure the group temperature ?
I am asking since during the massive temperature test we did half a year ago on HB I have noticed that the group needs about 1.5-2 minutes to return to the initial idle temperature.

Kfir.

Ian Densie

Is it the shot changing flavour or your taste buds changing? I'd say your taste buds could be desensitized by the first shot.

Isn't there an economic principle for this - the law of diminishing returns.

The first coffee is amazing, you have waited all night and 1/2 the morning for it, it is fabulous. Then you move onto the second shot, it's ok but not as good as the first one. I'd say if you had a third and forth shot the principle would continue - receiving "less" out of each of the following shots.

Just a thought...

Ian Densie

Hmmm... I was thinking, perhaps make the first shot as normal then throw it down the sink, then 15 min later prepare the second shot and see if that tastes like the first shot that you didn't have... does that make sense to anyone else?

Unknown

Ian Densie post=1361 wrote: Hmmm... I was thinking, perhaps make the first shot as normal then throw it down the sink, then 15 min later prepare the second shot and see if that tastes like the first shot that you didn't have... does that make sense to anyone else?

Sure Ian!! :-)) ..... painfull... :-) Have the same experience, first of the day is different from the second following shortly after first.

M

Reiss Gunson

hi dan

what is the ambient temperature that the machine is in and what is the pressure switch set to turn off at?

from what you write I'm wondering if you have your machine slightly on the hot side - i would advise against optimising any machine for the first 'component' that is produced - in any espresso machine the first shot from a cold start is very unlikely to be the best, in my view at least

kind regards

reiss.

Dan Streight

Reiss Gunson post=1366 wrote: hi dan

what is the ambient temperature that the machine is in and what is the pressure switch set to turn off at?

from what you write I'm wondering if you have your machine slightly on the hot side - i would advise against optimising any machine for the first 'component' that is produced - in any espresso machine the first shot from a cold start is very unlikely to be the best, in my view at least

kind regards

reiss.

Reiss,

Ambient air temp approximately 12" to the side of the LI, this morning, is 66-67 degrees F. The p-stat clicks off on the north side of the 1.3 mark...but still within the 1.3 mark (call this 1.38 or 1.39?).

I have a strong suspicion, as others here have voiced, muted/de-sensitized palate/taste buds are the result of more sips of espresso: Similar to the first few mouthfuls of a good strong IPA...the top side of the pint, at least for my taste buds, is always bigger in flavor than the bottom side sips of the pint. And even more so in flavor comparison of first pint to second pint and so on...I experience similar with wine tastings

So maybe the p-stat is running a little high...you were correct in stating in the p-stat thread it takes quite a few cycles to settle any change in the p-stat adjustment.

Dan Streight

So after some experimentation this is what I've learned: The first shot of the morning tastes very well balanced and to my overall liking. The second shot of the day is typically "hotter" in taste...in other words skewed to the bitter side of balanced (easily discernible).

So, with bean, bean age, grinder, grinder setting, tamp, etc., all being consistent I down-dose by .5g and the second shots seem to be within 10% taste deviation to the first shot of the day. Without a thermocouple to provide data and using my palate only my LI's first shot runs slightly cooler than subsequent shots. No big deal...not complaining...just analyzing!

I can't offer any taste data from a 3rd shot...possibly as someone mentioned just throw the first shot of the day down the drain...and use the 2nd and subsequent shots as the 'normal'. But so far down-dosing slightly makes up for the perceived increase in water temp/bitterness.

Reiss Gunson

'my LI's first shot runs slightly cooler than subsequent shots'

hi dan

this will be true for any machine in the world, not just espresso machines

the first part off a lathe, machining centre, etc for the day will almost always be out of tolerance unless you're very lucky

mechanical things take time to warm up & settle in, its just the way it is

Dan Streight

I think it speaks to the accuracy and reveal of what the LI offers in the cup. I've found a very easy adaptation to getting what I want in the cup.

Whereas my former HX machine, a Livia 90, was never predictable except in its unpredictable nature... :D

Unknown

:-) I love the description of unpredictable...

Paul Marshall

I find the first shot, which is after the machine has warmed up for approx. 1 hour, is not a very good shot. Subsequent shots are always better and all very consistent.

Gino Magnotta

yep - first shot always goes into my better half's cortado for that reason. Still a very good shot, mind.

It does put pressure on my milk steaming effort however!