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What am I doing wrong?
So, I thought I had a pretty good hang of the LR. I was dosing about 17 to 17.5g in a VST basket, allowing aprox 7s of PI, release lever, wait for first drips, start timer....27s and aprox 27g, move cup...drink amazing espresso!
That was until, I watched the recent video Reiss posted showcasing the new distribution tool. Immediately, I noticed that Reiss's prep was slightly different than mine. He kept the lever down (PI) until the first drop (sometimes as much as 15s or more) and then released the lever. Of course, me wanting to be exactly like how Reiss does, I've been trying this technique but with mixed results. Once in a while, i get a fantastic shot, but most of the time, my extractions look like there is a ton of channelling and shots are tasting sour. Even shots that extract fairly well taste on the sour side. A couple days ago, I tried to tamp a little bit lighter and that has helped. But tamp too light, and the shot starts to leak immediately (as you will see in the video below).
I made a crude video with my prep/routine and would love to hear feedback and what I could be doing better? I'm almost at a point of going back to my old routine, but I'm a stubborn mule!
YouTube Video of Prep
als, here is a photo of the puck after I've removed the PF. the crack looks to be in the same place as where the leak was coming from. The shot after this one I tamped a little harder and there was no leak, but the extraction still had channeling.
That was until, I watched the recent video Reiss posted showcasing the new distribution tool. Immediately, I noticed that Reiss's prep was slightly different than mine. He kept the lever down (PI) until the first drop (sometimes as much as 15s or more) and then released the lever. Of course, me wanting to be exactly like how Reiss does, I've been trying this technique but with mixed results. Once in a while, i get a fantastic shot, but most of the time, my extractions look like there is a ton of channelling and shots are tasting sour. Even shots that extract fairly well taste on the sour side. A couple days ago, I tried to tamp a little bit lighter and that has helped. But tamp too light, and the shot starts to leak immediately (as you will see in the video below).
I made a crude video with my prep/routine and would love to hear feedback and what I could be doing better? I'm almost at a point of going back to my old routine, but I'm a stubborn mule!
YouTube Video of Prep
als, here is a photo of the puck after I've removed the PF. the crack looks to be in the same place as where the leak was coming from. The shot after this one I tamped a little harder and there was no leak, but the extraction still had channeling.
Comments
nice post, i think we need more owners posting this kind of thing
you have a wonderful grinder, a funnel, a distribution tool, etc so i can't see that it is your gear is the issue
my only comment would be how does that tamper work? are you able to feel how much it is compressing the coffee before it bottoms out? i assume the tamper has a depth adjustment on it, and that it needs to be set slightly deeper
if you assume that that tamper is not the cause then why not grind finer (you have the Kafatek distribution supplied with the grinder so it should be a perfect pairing). you definitely should not be getting any drips during pre-infusion, that is something that is an absolute in my book
then if we put all that to one side for the moment, what was your routine before and if you were happy with the results why not stick to it?
kind regards
reiss.
with the LR if you go in a bit heavy on the tamp it isn't going to ruin the shot
you need to dig the coffee away from the edges of the basket and into the centre before you fit the funnel i think to avoid compressing coffee under the funnel
i think that may be responsible for the fracture in the top of the puck as the funnel has been made from quite thick pipe - this has created an area of higher compression, at least in some areas of the puck immediately under the funnel where the coffee was piled up slightly higher before you pushed the funnel down on top
I suggest to wdt also after lifting the funnel around the edge of the basket. You could also try to tap the pf 1or 2 times before tamping.
I've only had the conical for a few days but I noticed a similar issue with my first few shots. First of all I think it's better not to add too many additional steps into a routine and make sure the remaining steps are done the same way every time. I quickly solved the problem by stirring in a more organized fashion than you are in your video, pretty much like this:
There's no need to do this any longer than shown in the video, the grounds just need to be mixed once.
After taking off the funnel I just give the PF a short tap from the side so everything levels out a little more and then tamp. Don't know about the flat but with the conical I now have to tamp a bit harder again (used a HG-1 before).
Hope this makes sense to you and doesn't sound too voodooish (which I hate but I have to admit RDT and WDT both are a must in a monolith reality).
I've got the same setup as you, so all I can suggest is a few things I do slightly differently in addition to potentially grinding finer.
My WDT technique is much gentler than yours, more like Matthias' - you're very aggressive! I would be worried that you're creating areas of compaction.
Also after WDT, I would do 1-3 light taps to try and settle the coffee and fill in the ring that the funnel leaves behind. I use a leveler than Denis included with my grinder at this point, but I don't think the lack of it is causing you're issues.
With the higher preinfusion of the LR, I have no problem tamping until I bottom out with my tamper (similar to your LevTamp)
Finally, when you lift the lever you seem to just sort of let go and let it catch. Assuming you have preinfusion set to 3 bar this is basically taking you from 3 bar straight to 9 in an instant when it catches. I slowly raise my lever and as I feel it catch I let go. In my head this is more gently ramping it up to 9 and then it ramps down on its own from there. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I like it - it's also probably slightly better for the seals, but who knows.
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To the OP- I have the MonoCon with the same funnel and distribution tool. I second the suggestion to work the ground cover closer to the basket edge after doing your WDT and removing the funnel. A few shakes and side pf taps works for me. Then I do four or five mild vertical taps before tamping. Nutation is key for me to get a good side seal. This is with the very snug fitting Londinium button tamper. I have level tampers but with them the nutating angle becomes limited.
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my apologies for not replying sooner. I had planned to spend a good amount of time this week experimenting, but it didn't work out that.
I'm going to try to go through everybody's feedback one by one..apologies if I miss anything!
@Reiss
The tamper I'm using is the LevTamp from Kafatek. I can definitely feel it when I push the grinds down and they start to push back once compacted. With my previous L1, i would tamp to right before that point. With this LR, that kind of light tamp has resulted in those leaky drops during PI. as a result, i've adjusted my tamp to keep pushing down once I feel the grinds 'push back' once compacted.
If I grind finer, then I'll get longer extraction times (approaching 50 to 60s) and still getting the channeling. I was starting to think I might be going too fine.
I fit the funnel on the PF before grinding into the PF. So the basket is empty, funnel on, then grind into it. While the funnel does look thick on the outside, its actually much thinner at the attachment point inside the PF (see image):
After I remove the funnel, there is a slight gap between the grinds and the wall of the basket. i do give the PF a little shake to break that and that gap usually disappears after I tamp.
My routine before this was releasing the lever after about 7 to 8s of PI. The only reason I changed it was because I saw how you were not releasing the lever until beads started to form much later in the PI....monkey see, monkey do! I figured if you were doing it that way, it was the 'right' way?
@Matthias
yes, i'm trying to go a little easier on the WDT. I had seen Dennis make a video of his method and was combining his with how I saw Riess's technique. I also asked Dennis how he was nutating with the LevTamp and he told me that he stopped nutating with his tamper a while ago.
So all of that said, I have tried to apply the feedback recently and made more videos. I also went back to my initial routine of PI for 7-8s. Although I think in these videos its about 10s PI. So I'm releasing the lever before beads start dripping. Unfortunately, I ran out of the Counter Culture Apollo beans before I really 'fixed' this issue. I picked these beans because I'm very familiar with them. They usually give me a nice hint of blueberry notes and the body has a nice chocolatey finish (never too bright). With this bag though, I was just getting sour shot after sour shot. Only once did i get a hint of that blueberry. could it have just been a bad bag? I doubt it....I'm now using a bag of Stumptown Hairbender, which is usually my go to comfort blend. I find its usually quite forgiving. The extractions look better than the Counter Culture beans, but still not great (getting these clover shapes). Taste has been much better though, its almost what I expect, but still on the sour side...
Counter Culture Apollo - Lighter Tamp
Counter Culture Apollo - Firmer Tamp
Hairbender - 1
Hairbender - 2
if you are running ultra light roasts and want a bit more heat just turn the Ceme pressure switch up 1/4 - 1/2 turn and you'll get rid of any sour pretty quick - the trouble is i suspect any sour taste is currently likely to be the result of poor distribution rather than a lack of temperature, so it is probably prudent to focus on improving the distribution
everyone will have a view on this i expect, but my most recent experiments suggest that poor distribution rather than poor grinders are what are holding people back more than any other single factor
is the CEME pressure the same as the PI pressure adjustment you had posted?
i think that is where the gains are to be made
try turning the Ceme up a 1/4 of a turn if you want the water to arrive at the puck at a higher temperature
kind regards
reiss.
- Not sure how long you've used your monolith, but I just realized that they really do change behavior when seasoned (I'm nowhere near that point but after roughly 4lbs I can already notice the difference.
- I had extremely long PI's with way too fast extractions and asked Denis about it. He suggested not to worry too much about PI and a first drop and this definitely helped. I now concentrate on extraction time and do around 8 seconds of PI, extractions are great.
- I had to go a lot finer with the grind settings than Denis' original setting (from 7 to 1 on a medium/dark roast).
- Don't own a 18g VST basket but you might want to check if your current dose is messing with the shower screen. I use a 15 g VST and really can't put more than 14g in it or otherwise the puck will get messed up. For the same reason I also need to tamp a little harder than usual (IMO tamping pressure doesn't seem to have such a huge impact anyway).
cheers
Matt
I was actually doing pretty well with the last half of the hair bender as I was going back to my old prep method and releasing the lever around 8-9s after PI.
I then switched to a lighter roast and back to the same issue....until, I increased the dose! Ive been using a 18g VST basket. all of the videos from this thread have been around 17 to 17.2 grams in the VST basket. for the medium roasts like the hair bender, this seems to be ok. but for lighter roasts, i can't get a clean extraction. so i dosed up to 18g and noticed a significant improvement. felt like there was more room to work with and this video is 18.7g in the basket.
is that a general rule with light roasts in regards to increasing the does in the basket?
completely agree. i expect when frans surfaces he will have a view on this.
lighter roasts extract less readily than darker roasts
remind me send you a londinium distribution tool when they become available as i think you will see an appreciable step up in performance
reiss.
'Light' and 'medium' for roast is not very precise but generally, indeed, I start off with 18g in the 18g VST basket. Relatively light roasts (Tonino # 105 for instance) can take up to 19g in that same basket, ground finer and at a higher pre-infusion pressure and therefore a higher extraction temperature.
I currently have a slightly darker (Tonino # 90) roast from Sumatra beans that also taste / behave a little darker and for now I have gone back to about 16g in an IMS precision basket that's designed for 16-20g, at a lower pre-infusion pressure and thus also at a slightly lower extraction pressure profile at a lower temperature, yielding delicious and sweet complex coffee.
(currently on my way in Germany, with espresso equipment of course to install in the hotel rooms)
I Install the equipment on my arrival and take it with me when I leave. Then there is no urgent reason to leave the room at all and I can be sure to enjoy the holiday. http://kostverlorenvaart.nl/onvacation/