This forum is now read-only
To login to the new support channel and community forums, go to the Support Portal
Bestcup filters
I purchases several Bestcup M filters and was getting ready to start using them until I saw the following statement in the instruction manual:
"Coffee machine materials: Due to the process, decarbonised (descaled) water contains free carbon dioxide. No installations made of copper or with nickel or zinc coatings should be used after the filter."
Doesn't this rule out using the filter with my Londinium I?
Rocky
"Coffee machine materials: Due to the process, decarbonised (descaled) water contains free carbon dioxide. No installations made of copper or with nickel or zinc coatings should be used after the filter."
Doesn't this rule out using the filter with my Londinium I?
Rocky
Comments
if you are struggling to get a good shot why not simply ask for help here unstead of reading the satanic verses that is HB: i dont see them offering you any assistance
i dont believe i have received any correspondence from you at all
not only can i say that I'm very happy to help, but i actually spend time helping people via this forum to get a good shot, but you do need to put your hand up & say, hey, I'm struggling here
i am also available on FaceTime & Skype
i will answer your question too (the obvious being if you are not comfortable with the filter, simply remove it and soften your water by other means - the BWT filters are made in Austria and are regarded as industry leading. You could soften your water using a salt regeneration softener, but then that would expose you to higher levels of sodium chloride which you may equally consider a health risk, or you could use reverse osmosis and then add calcium carbonate back in, or you could buy a suitable bottled water at the supermarket (which is what i would do in your situation), but in the meantime why dont you start writing a post with as much detail as possible to describe your setup and the nature of the issues you are having
you have about 1000 owners of londinium machines here at your disposal, sprayed across 45 countries, so if you dont want to deal with me you can deal with someone else if you prefer; there are no shortage of american owners, for example
the point is this is the place where you are going to receive the help you need to get great results from your londinium lever espresso machine - not somewhere where ties to commercial interests mean they are doing all they can to discredit londinium
we are an industry disrupter, we are cutting out the non-value adding resellers who want 40% for doing sweet FA; we are in a word hated
reiss.
I'm not having any trouble getting great shots from my Londinium. I have owned several machines over the years, and yours is my favorite. I am intrigued by the CT1 which is why I made that post. I certainly did not mean to disparage the Londinium and do not think I did. I will add another post to clarify.
My question was concerning the Bestcup water filter. The placement of my machine does not allow for a direct plumbed connection, and I just purchased six of the filters from you thinking I could get away from using bottled water and go to tap water and Bestcup filters instead, more for convenience than cost. However, the pamphlet says not to use the filters with machines that have copper in them. Have you seen that statement before? I don't know what espresso machine doesn't have at least some copper in it, so how Bestcup sells them at all seems strange.
Please see my followup post here: https://www.home-barista.com/levers/manual-lever-questions-t45158.html#p511749
Rocky
The purpose of posting this image here is to make it clear that this filter has been specifically developed for use in espresso machines, and indeed it is used in many many different models of espresso machine other than the LONDINIUM I (2012-2016); it is not a generic filter that we have repurposed for espresso machine use. BWT are the very best espresso machine water filters i know of
Here is an image of the page that contains the paragraph in question. Given that this filter has been developed specifically for use in espresso machines and that the vast majority of espresso machines have copper boilers and pipework i think it would be an absurdity if you took this sentence to mean that it should not be used in machines that have any copper in them after the filter
Im happy to be challenged on this, but in a past life i was a lawyer, and mindful that it was probably not drafted by someone for which english is their mother tongue, my reading of it is the manufacturer is warning against the use of the filter with coatings of copper, nickel, or zinc
I will discuss this with our manufacturer when they come online later today, but any other reading is an absurdity in my view
It is of course true that if you over soften your water by using the softening filter when it is not required that the water can become acidic and will, if conditions become acidic enough, start to very very slowly dissolve the boiler - note that even then this process would take in excess of 10 years, not 10 days
the big picture is the warning is not their for your health, but rather the health of your espresso machine; BWT dont want a queue of people outside the door asking for a replacement machine after theirs has fizzed away
if you measure the characteristics of the water in your machine this risk is entirely avoidable
but yes, i have heard of people using reverse osmosis water directly into their machine without remineralising it, or using the BWT filter 'just in case' when they already have very soft water
typically you will alerted if you are making these mistakes as the boiler fill level sensor system on your LONDINIUM will start performing erratically, overfilling and not re-filling and occasionally people post on this forum reporting those symptoms
kind regards
reiss.
Question is, what is the original language this manual was written in?? From the German/Dutch version I think they mean no copper machines WITH zinc or nickel coatings. Zinc and Nickel will dissolve rather easily in acidic conditions. Copper much less easy. In other words no problem here... :-))
thank you for your contribution, which i am most grateful for & your translation of the German makes perfect sense; i.e. do not use in machines that have nickel or zinc electroplated onto copper
accordingly there is no issue here; there is no plating of any of the internal surfaces of our machines
the first language presented in the manual is German, which i think is safe to assume is the native language as BWT is an Austrian firm
this statement stolen from wikipedia:
The languages of Austria include German, the official language and lingua franca; Austro-Bavarian, the main dialect outside Vorarlberg; Alemannic, the main dialect in Vorarlberg; and several minority languages.
i sincerely believe that any suggestion that these filters are incompatible with copper internal surfaces is a nonsense
If these "I don't want to have a filter jug like Brita but I'll take a tiny in-tank filter thingy" gadgets could eat a machine, imagine what my water filter could do:
I think that if your water is hard, the little things can alleviate that a bit and if you want to make really sure, don't just focus on small print but actually take the time to test the water coming out of your tap and the water coming out of the filter. The test sets are not expensive.
In theory if you create water that has too few minerals and it too acid, you will find your coffee to taste very very awful way before it can eat you or your machine.
Attached files
you might have come across my post from last weekend: https://londiniumespresso.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=909
I'm pretty sure Reiss is correct in his assumption that BWT want to make sure they aren't made liable for any longterm boiler damage. Also, the chemical explanation on the subject by Thomas made sense to me.
Cheers Matt
Rocky
Some chlorine is filtered out but if water is heavily chlorinated, a bigger capacity filter (like the one I have) may be advised and Stéphane also mentioned, like I did before, that it is up to the owners to test their water.
Also, if you leave the espresso machine for a week or longer, make sure to completely refresh the boiler water and if you use a bigger filter like I do, make sure to run enough water through it to refresh its contents before making coffee after your return home.
Stéphane underlined that primarily carbonate is filtered out, the material that can cause scale. Some other elements like chlorine are also filtered by the active carbon but of that there is very little in the tiny in-tank filters, compared to the bigger BTW filter that I have installed.
Volvic, on the other hand, costs around 0,55€/litre and even other brands will be hard to find for less than 0,30€/l. What am I missing here?
Matt
Thank you for the information. Do you need to mix any fresh water with the filtered water to maintain the parameters that Reiss recommends, or does the filter take out just enough but not too much?
Reiss's recommendations:
pH = 7.0
Total dissolved solids(TDS), often stated as 'dry residue@180C' = 120-130 mg/L
Hardness = 70-80 mg/L
Alkalinity = 50mg/L
http://londiniumcoffee.blogspot.com/2009/01/best-water-for-your-espresso-machine.html
Rocky
A friend of mine and I recently took his Rocket for service and to our pleasant surprise there was hardly any scale in the E61 group head. He uses the Brita jug.
I replace my big filter every year. Stéphane remarked that in my case (I have a volume meter which shows that I just use a small portion of the filter capacity in a year) I can make the filter last up to 15 months.
Reiss posted about ppm values on the 'permanent file' so I think you can safely use his advice from there.
What's most important in this thread is no, the tiny Bestcup filters don't eat you or the machine.
you are very correct about the cost, but I have been more concerned about consistent water quality than price. I have been reluctant to try filtration because it seems like frequent testing might be required and that so many people need to add fresh water to their filtered water to achieve the best parameters. If I can buy bottled water that meets the parameters for good tasting espresso and does not scale the machine, it seems like the easiest way to go. Most recently I have used Crystal Geyser Natural Spring Water, which is recommended by La Marzocco. https://home.lamarzoccousa.com/water-for-home-espresso/
Lately I have been rethinking that though, which is why I was going to try the Bestcup M filters, and I still might. It would certainly be much more convenient than buying and schlepping many cases of bottled water.
For several years I did a preventive descaling of my machines every six months or so, but these days so many of the manufacturers warn against doing any descaling at home that I a have become reluctant to continue that practice. Now I am wondering if that is just a disclaimer that the machine manufacturers make like Frans says BWT is doing with their filters.
Rocky
I'm sure Reiss has been clear about descaling on this forum, too. Basically, the rule is to make sure there is no scale building up in the first place (i.e. by using filtered water). It's bad in many ways, not just for the machine but also for your electricity bills.
Therefore, if there is no limescale in your boiler, there's also no need for descaling. Descaling is a pretty aggressive process when done with acid and it isn't good for the machine's internals.
In other words: one single descaling will probably add as much acid to your boiler as several years of bestcup filter use… ;-)
Matt
It depends on what you call 'descaling at home'. If you use citric acid in a very expert and sensible way, it can be helpful locally on some parts but almost everyone who simply adds citric acid to the water reservoir and runs that through the machine assuming that is 'descaling' runs into fantastic trouble, is my experience from years of being on a forum and seeing users surface with cries for help like "I did a full descale and now it won't work!"
Imagine a thin coat of scale lining the inside of a boiler and pipes. No problem. It won't grow into a ton or cement in a year if you use filtered water. But then don't use filtered water and add hard water, let it grow inside. Then let some acid flow in. It dissolves some, dislodges other parts and the dislodged parts of scale start floating around. Some are getting stuck here, others there. Then the water sensor seems to be dead, then a valve won't close and water overflows while the steam valve won't open at all anymore ;-)
It's really beter to prevent scale than to imagine you can let it grow and make it all 'disappear' every six months.
Rocky
In my experience, the values of cold water out of the filter is very different from the values of that water out of the filter that has been cooking in the boiler.
No need to first cook it, mix it with water that has been in the boiler longer and delivering steam, thereby getting a different concentration etc, then get it from the hot water tap, then cooling it and assuming it's the same as if it just came cold out the other side of the little filter.
If you want to measure the values of the water out of that little filter, merely make it go through that filter into the glass where you test it.
Good idea. Thanks.
Rocky
From the kitchen water faucet, I get 7.6+ pH, 105 TDS, and 40-60 TH using the Londinium test kit. Using a Hach test kit I get 20-40 TH and less than 20 CH.
From my refrigerator water filter which removes the chlorine, I get 7.6+ pH, 105 TDS, and 20 TH. With Hach I get 0 TH and 0 CH.
With a Brita filter, I get 6.2 pH, 90 TDS, and 20 TH. Again Hach shows 0 values.
I checked the City website, and they report water coming from the treatment plant as being 8.38 pH, 30.2 alkalinity, and 27.6 hardness.
I didn't even bother testing with a Bestcup filter.
How can water have such a high pH but low alkalinity and calcium hardness?
Do you think the water from my refrigerator will do even with the low hardness values, or do I need to stick to bottled water?
Rocky
I don't find it especially high, it is all close to the neutral value of 7 isn't it? What makes you find it high?
Alkalinity: 28.4-37.3 ppm
Hardness: 20-38 ppm
pH: 6.90-7.30 pH units
Total Dissolved Solids: 67.0-84.0 ppm
And that water was fine. Yours don't look too far off to me?
Thanks,
Rocky
leave the BWT filter in its wrapper (you dont need it) and fill your machine up with tap water and crack on
as far as i can see you do not have any water worries
(london for comparison has carbonate hardness in the order of 250-300ppm - like putting cement in your machine)
Last week the shower screen popped off on my L1 and first I thought it would need some cleaning and degreasing. Until I saw little white grains of limescale on the mesh, ouch!
I have used Bestcup L filters from day one (December '16), and put a new filter in every 4 weeks, just to be on the safe side. Usually make 2 cups in the morning, maybe 2 more during the weekend, that's it – so not that much water consumption, either.
So, I got myself a water hardness test kit and realised that the BWT filter was obviously doing a very poor job at descaling. (Double checked that the filter was put in place correctly, it all seemed fine).
Since then I have been using Brita filtered water (which actually brings hardness down to 50ppm from 250ppm so I blend it with 50% tap water). Still, I'm worried about any damage that has already happened – what would you do?
thanks for posting
i have a couple of thoughts. the first being that i regard BWT as among the very best in filter technology
the second being that the perennial problem with filters, particularly low capacity ones like the in tank filters, is that they need to be changed as soon as the softening resin in them is exhausted as they cease to provide protection beyond that point
knowing when this will be is obviously influence by how much water you put through the machine (as you have already mentioned) and of course how hard the untreated water is - at 250ppm your water is quite hard and you can expect it to chew through a cartridge that size perhaps every 3 weeks I'm guessing - i would not be surprised if you told me this was the case
in order to determine the change interval i think you need to measure the hardness of the water each week after it has been through the water filter
so on a sunday morning, or some other quiet time that is convenient for you i would pull the water box out with the BWT water filter still fitted in it, hold it over the kitchen sink, depress the spring valve in the bottom of the tank underneath, collect the filtered water that runs out in a cup that is sitting in the sink and measure the hardness (hardness note, not TDS)
if i wanted to do a proper job i would run the hardness test three times each week and average the results
i would then log these weekly measurements, replacing the filter when the hardness rose above 5gpg for our american friends (85ppm for the rest of us)
i would probably grit my teeth and perform this exercise for the life of two filter cartridges and ideally 3 cartridges, but you will probably lose the will to live before then
assume the volume of water you put through the machine is fairly consistent on a monthly basis you will then have a time based bench mark for how often you need to change the filter
if you have found another method of filtration that you prefer then far be it from me to turn you back to the BWT; the above is simply my view on using low capacity water filter cartridges of any brand and why i think a suitable bottled water is perhaps more expensive (but not always) but brings a level of assurance and convenience
in terms of whether you have damaged your machine i very much doubt it, and whilst i dont know this as a scientific fact but i suspect now that you have lowered the hardness of the system that any scale that has formed in that relatively short period of time is likely to be dissolved away by the softer water over time. i definitely do not think you need to start pulling your machine apart; i can all but guarantee you that no harm has been done
reiss.
The thing is: After doing RDT and WDT, a water test kit is the last thing I want my wife seeing me fiddling with on a regular basis… ;-) I can't wait to have the machine hooked up to mains in our new home but that won't happen until the end of the year.
I suppose I will have a closer look nonetheless though.
I use the Brita filter jug you mentioned and will do some further tests. With the BWT filters, is it wrong to test the water that comes from the group/hot water spout? Or why are you suggesting the complicated path by taking out the tank?
I was blending the low hardness water since I thought that the optimum hardness for espresso is somewhere around 130ppm – wrong?
the SCAA/E or some other chief pooh-bah of the coffee world has published a list of parameters for optimal coffee water but if they are saying 130ppm is optimal hardness i will say that you will get scale in your machine
but be careful to distinguish it from the recommended TDS (total dissolved solids) value - i think the higher the TDS value the better for espresso, limited of course by the requirement that carbonate hardness (the total of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate) does not exceed about 80ppm and i would regard a value of 50ppm for carbonate hardness as ideal, personally. do not go below 30ppm or the auto fill circuit on the boiler will become unreliable
As long as scale won't continue to build up I'll just leave it there for now and get on with my life. In our new house I will have to tackle the subject more thouroughly, local hardness there is around 410ppm so we will need a more reliable water treatment solution, not just for the Londinium…