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L1 vs R
Hi Reiss,
I currently have an Elektra Microcasa at home, which is the first expresso machine that i've owned. I enjoy using this machine and generally pull good shots. But it has 2 major short comings for me - Inconsistent temperature in my shots and not being able to leave it on all day due to it overheating. I'm pretty set on staying with a lever machine though so i'm looking to upgrade to a Londinium in 2017.
I'm looking at the Londinium R as it seems to fit the bill and be the most affordable of your machines. But could you just tell me the basic differences between the R and the L1?
thanks
Nick
I currently have an Elektra Microcasa at home, which is the first expresso machine that i've owned. I enjoy using this machine and generally pull good shots. But it has 2 major short comings for me - Inconsistent temperature in my shots and not being able to leave it on all day due to it overheating. I'm pretty set on staying with a lever machine though so i'm looking to upgrade to a Londinium in 2017.
I'm looking at the Londinium R as it seems to fit the bill and be the most affordable of your machines. But could you just tell me the basic differences between the R and the L1?
thanks
Nick
Comments
Does this post https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/blog/3104/2017-lever-espresso-machine-offering answer your questions?
Kind regards
Reiss
Thanks. To be honest its a little too technical for me.
Nick
1. A rotary pump replaces the piston pump, making the machine quieter and more importantly the time for which the pump runs is greatly reduced
2. The design mimics that of the L3 and L2 in offering variable pre-infusion pressure. This greatly improves the taste in the cup for lightly roasted speciality coffees
Kind regards
Reiss
Was your question about the difference between the R and the old L1 or the new L1?
The change from piston to rotary pump and variable pre-infusion are the main upgrades from the old L1 to the new R.
The differences between the new R and the new L1 (formerly called the L-1P) are of a different nature. Compared to the R, the new L1 is plumb-in only, runs on 240 volts and has a boiler more than twice the size. Reiss, please correct me if I am mistaken.
Yes. It was for the R the New L1. Thats very useful info thanks. I wouldn't want to get it plumbed in so the R seems like the best choice.
Nick
i thought you sold your L1 and moved onto a one group Slayer Martin?
kind regards
reiss.
I bought a plumb in kit for my L1 last year but haven't gotten around to fitting it yet, hence the question...
What would the difference be between an old Plumbed-in L1 and the new LR?
As background, I have an EK43 for grind duties and I don't have a preference for light or dark roast beans and usually use a 1:2 recipe.
3 bar pre-infusion pressure is what the L-R brings to the table
it also brings the speed and refinement of a rotary pump
a plumbed in L1 is still pre-infuses at boiler pressure, typically 1.3 bar - it is merely being supplied water from the mains rather than from the water box
and you dont have to plumb an LR in, which is what 19/20 people desire, me included - its plug & play (& relocate if you need to)
kind regards
reiss.
What difference does the PI make in the cup?
Will I be able to get greater output too, so stretch the ratio if I need to?
if you run the PI too high the shot tastes weird (aerated/gassy) (L1(2017 on)/L2/L3 owners will be able to attest to this) and if you run it too low (dipper) you lose body
how do i know this? on too many occasions i had people visit me here in new zealand and try the shots from the L1(2012-16) and the L1(2017 on) and without exception they would all prefer the taste of the L1(2017 on)
for more than two years we have tried a variety of piston pumps (didnt work) and rotary pumps (wouldn't fit) and were promised the one we have settled upon for almost two years before it materialised
serendipitously brexit rolled into town against all odds and sank the pound - if this improbable event had not occurred I'm not sure i would have been brave enough to release the L-R
but with brexit non sterling buyers are able to purchase the L-R for less than they could purchase the L1(2012-16) this time last year; that is how dramatic the currency movement has been
on the L-R with the PI set to 3 bar you will get 60mL, assuming you allow pre-infusion to complete, which takes about 3 seconds
a shorter PI duration helps to keep the taste of the espresso clean and prevent it from becoming murky (which occurs if pre-infusion stretches out beyond 15 seconds)
the real benefit of the L-R is (i) the refinement of the rotary pump, especially welcome when it starts up at 5am, (ii) the ability to raise the peak inlet temperature without raising the idle temperature, (iii) probably most important; the ability to extract with ease from doses greater than 18g
if you never dose above 18g and never run light roasts then the only benefit of upgrading to the L-R is the first one
kind regards
reiss.
It certainly sounds like there will be a real tangible benefit to me in my setup and my tastes in beans!
Hello Reiss,
I was told that the original Li is not suited for lighter roasts because of the inability to change extraction temperature.
I always read you should go up 2-4°C in temperature depending on the bean with light roasts (Its purely hypothetical to me because I did not have a machine were I could change it that precise). Thats why I am thinking about a dual boiler for a new machine as I d like to try out light roasts. But I really admire the LI R. If I understand correctly you say that with a LI R a high quality extraction is possible with lighter roasts because of PI. Is that correct? So is the higher temperature a not that important factor in your opinion?
The inability to change temperature like with a DC mini is the one thing at the moment keeping me from saving up
thx in advance
ill direct you to my recent blog post to set the scene:
https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/blog/3110/if-ask-me-whether-you-should-buy-our-machine-or-the-other-one
you must not assign to the three letter acronym 'PID' magical powers; if you open flush a dipper fed lever group with PID attached it will still overheat just as well as if the PID were not present
if a dalle corte holds appeal you should buy one as the design philosophy is at the other end of the spectrum to what we believe at londinium. if other londinium owners want to publish there experience of owning another brand that is fine, but it isn't for me to do. my advice is to buy the dalle corte
if you chose to purchase a londinium r i am more than willing to provide absolute assurance that it will handle light roasts exceptionally well - i understand that frans drinks almost exclusively light roasts and many super light roasts, for example
Thanks, thats what I wanted to know. Just your experience with lighter roasts with a Londinium.
But I don't understand the benefit for lighter roasts. Can somebody explain this me ?
Thank you !
You will over time notice that darker roasts taste better with a pre-infusion that is not too long, and a grind setting that allows the stream to go effortlessly, more than 1gram per second and, for instance, 35g espresso out of 15-18g of beans.
Lighter beans will most probably taste better for you with a longer pre-infusion than your darker beans had, and a flow of, for instance, 30g in 34seconds out of 18g of beans. Finer grind, higher pre-infusion pressure (resulting in a higher temp in the puck), a firm start of the extraction, starting slow and going faster towards the end of the extraction.
These are not fixed values since we would first need to define and measure 'light' and 'dark' using, for instance, a Tonino device, so really the best thing for you is to make plenty of espresso and experience this yourself.
Seems, I have to learn a lot over extracting lighter roasts. Maybe the light roasts just doesn't taste for me, because
I am not able to extract them.
An alternative way that I've seen good baristas extract lighter beans is to dose more and extract less, for instance 20g in the basket and just 25g in the cup. But that was on a commercial two group E61 machine with a constant extraction pressure.
There is much to be explored but the best way to have lots of pleasure is probably to stick to beans from a roaster that you know roasts well for your taste and not try to jump through complicated hoops for every shot. It's there for your blissful enjoyment, not to struggle.
Hello Frans,
if I understand correctly the more pressure I adjust for Preinfusion the higher the water temperature of the PI
will be.
If this is right would you care to explain why the PI temperature is higher with a higher preset pressure?
Maybe this is a dumb question but I just dont get it how that is done within the LI R.
thank you for posting. if you measure the temperature of the thermosiphon pipes you will immediately see that they are much hotter than the group temperature, so this temperature drop is being absorbed by the group as the water enters from the thermosiphon pipe
when the water in the thermsiphon is at a lower pressure it enters the group, and ultimately the brew chamber, more slowly than if it is at a higher pressure. therefore there is more time for the group to suck the excess heat out of the water when it inters the group at a lower pressure. make sense? pretty straight forward. so in flexing the inlet pressure we are moving the brew temperature also
light roasts need higher brew temperatures to extract sufficiently
higher doses need more pressure for pre-infusion to complete in a sufficiently brief time period - ultra long pre infusion times compromise the clarity of the espresso
kind regards
reiss.