Enhanced Plumbing Kit, US L1

Unknown

Hello Reiss -- the kit arrived today, thanks as always for prompt shipment.

I've done an inventory of all the bits which arrived and looked at the photos in the old thread about the inlet pipe leak, wherein Ziv Sadeh obviously had a few issues.

I have four questions:

1) the "North America adapter", aka 3/8 BSP (M) to 3/8 NPT (M), is not a compression fitting, it has a straight pass through without the inner conical seat on the BSP side. Will it still seal against the seat on the end of the hose, if it's tightened enough?

2) I also seem to have received the right-angle 1/8 BSP (M-M) piece which would thread into the solenoid. It has a smooth cylindrical length ~1cm long on one side, prior to the threaded barb. I can see the same fitting in Ziv's photos from his old thread. Is this just meant to be a spare in the event I damage the existing fitting on the solenoid?

3) I've also received a sodding great F->M step-up adapter, which appears to be 3/8 NPT (F) on one side and something much larger (1/2"?), male, on the other. It's a lovely fitting but I'm not sure if I need it for something as it doesn't appear on the inventory list on your store (nor does the right-angle piece I described in #2)

4) In past lives I was trained not to use teflon tape on tapered threads or flare fittings, so I'm assuming none is required for any of these connections. Would you concur or do you instead recommend teflon or a liquid sealant?

BTW I did also receive the new enhanced seals, will install them soon. Thanks again.

Reiss Gunson

hi toby

thanks for posting

1. yes it will. the other alternative as you are in the States is to do away with the braided pressure hose we supply and get an adaptor from EspressoParts.com that takes you from 3/8"BSP to 3/8" US compression fitting thread and then you can run a braided pressure hose with US compression fittings directly to the machine

2. oversight on the packer's part i expect

3. that will be a 3/4"BSP fitting which is useful in many parts of the world as it allows you to connect directly onto washing machine taps

4. it should seal without thread tape or sealant, but if not i do like the loxeal thread sealant we sell, yes. strands of thread tape can break off and jam in the solenoid which is not helpful

kind regards

reiss.

Unknown

Ok. Thanks Reiss, that clarifies things.

It might be a useful addition to the permanent file to list out the various threads and genders for someone who might want to cobble together their own plumbing kit.

I'm going to use the push-fit flexible hose connections. They're good for 150psi and you can use a very small (1/4") nylon line, integrate a manual or automatic shutoff, etc. The key for me will be to find a 1/8 BSP (F) to either MIP or compression fitting. I believe I've found the right thing at espressoparts.com but I want to lay out all the components on my bench and make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

From there it's easy to tap into my under-counter water filter for the source, and I only need to drill a very small (and easily hidden, and filled) hole in my cabinet for the feed line. I'll leave the drain fittings off for now since they'd require a lot more surgery on the granite and plumbing.

I'm going to use something like this for leak detection:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K1K25T8/

It uses the same 1/4" push-connect hose fittings so should be easy to implement. If it triggers, it's a throwaway item, but hopefully I won't have a lot of need for it!

Reiss Gunson

hi toby

i seem to recall John Guest make a fitting that takes you from their hose size to a 3/8"BSP fitting which you can connect directly onto your L1, so you may be interested in that

ive said it before, but i'll say it again, if you are plumbing in your espresso machine (any brand) i think you're mad if you dont use an automatic leak detection & shut-off device

if you go away for 3 weeks and it leaks for some reason it will be a very significant mess to return to

so yes, definitely the way to go

reiss.

Unknown

Hi Reiss -- found various john guest fittings. Unfortunately if you use one with a BSP thread, the tubing options are only metric. Similarly, inch-size tubing is only available with IP/NPT threads or US compression fittings.

I believe I have a plan, however, making use of one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004RCOY5O/

It's still one more threaded connection than I would prefer but it allows me to make use of 1/4" poly tubing for the entire feed line instead of the much heaver braided stainless.

Unknown

An update for the general public. Hardware all installed, but I have a sneaking suspicion my 1/4 (OD) feed line might be a hair too small.

Blue light turns on. If boiler pressure is low, water happily flows in. Blue light turns off, red light on, pressure builds.

If boiler pressure is high, water doesn't flow in at all. Not even a little. Eventually blue light turns off and plaintive beeping begins.

If I bleed off the boiler pressure, things seem to work as expected.

The feed I'm taking is on the output from the reverse osmosis system under my sink. At equilibrium I assume (perhaps incorrectly?) that system is at mains pressure from the municipal supply. I don't have a separate pressure gauge to verify. The reducing Tee takes the 3/8 (OD) lines of the RO system down to my 1/4 feed line.

Open to suggestions but at this point I can see two options: try a 3/8 feed line (easy) or figure out how to put a pressure accumulator inline somehow.

Reiss when you are available I'll walk you through the issue I'm having with the drain funnel so we can determine if it's my fault or something else.

thanks

Frans Goddijn

On the linked page is a blog of mine showing how I boosted the line pressure.

Unknown

Hi Frans -- thanks for that. Funny you mention that, as I finished an unrelated project with a Grundfos pump earlier this week.

I've swapped in 3/8 (OD) line for the 1/4 (OD) line but the problem persists. Unfortunately the cheap fittings I bought at the big box store are all leaking so better ones from Legris and John Guest are on order from Amazon.

I will do some hands on troubleshooting with Reiss at some point soon and then decide on next steps.

Reiss Gunson

hi toby

it is probably worth taking a look at the comprehensive posting of Stephen Jenner some time ago in the permanent file on fitting an RO system

as i recall RO works on drip by drip processing so you will need an accumulator tank that pressurises

as you describe it the issue you have is the result of incoming water trying to enter the machine at a pressure lower than boiler pressure, as opposed to an issue of flow (line diameter), and so water actually flows backwards out of the machine when the inlet solenoid opens as the water trying to enter the machine is at a lower pressure and is therefore forced backwards

i.e. i think you will find the 6mm plastic tubing will feed the machine providing you add an accumulator tank to your system

kind regards

reiss.

Unknown

Thanks all (including the private message!) for suggestions. My RO system is a Kinetico K5. It uses a storage tank with a bladder. One side is mains/city water at its nominal line pressure, but fed by way of the K5 'brain' so that processed water can still accrue in the tank -- it has some kind of clever valving to allow pressure to be isolated at various times. The other side of the bladder is treated water coming out of the RO system.

Assuming the city side of the tank is indeed at line pressure, that should be more than enough to feed the boiler, but clearly it's not. So I suspect something may be amiss on the tank.

Kinetico obviously goes to some length to discourage customers from self service, but as I had the local folks out here last week to inspect other gear in the house, I suspect a small moan that they evidently didn't check the pressure behaviors of the RO system will yield a complimentary return visit. Won't know til Monday though!

Fortunately the kit is under hardware warranty for another 6 years so I suspect it'll sort itself out with a bit of a cleaning of the magic valves in the RO system itself, plus confirming the storage tank is configured correctly.

As mentioned I've upgraded from 1/4 (~6mm) to 3/8 (~9.5mm) tubing anyway, though perhaps in hindsight that was unnecessary. Without suitable pressure gauges it's difficult to isolate the fault.

Unknown

I had the water guys back out yesterday to check the RO system in much greater detail. The pressure coming off the feed line to the L1 peaks at 30psi, whereas the mains pressure (pre-RO) is ~55psi or so. They also checked the valves and things are all in spec.

The guys told me they've run into this issue (where an appliance calls for water but there isn't enough pressure ex-RO to meet the demand) particularly with built-in ice makers on fridges. Kinetico sell a small accessory pressure reservoir which solves the issue by providing a pressurized air bladder (like a more conventional RO storage tank). The water guy suggested he'd be happy to put one of those in for me but I could buy the same thing for a third the price and plumb it in myself.

Basically, you put 10psi of air in the tank, then open it to the line pressure, which compresses the air further. When the L1 opens its solenoid at the other end, the air helps push water down the line. A check valve on the feed to the tank keeps the water going in the desired direction.

I did also investigate various booster pumps, consistent with Frans' suggestion, but I am leaning towards the tank idea since the whole point of this exercise was to *remove* pumps from the equation.

It's US Turkey Day so nothing much will happen in the next 24 hours, but then I'll be back on it with a vengeance.