Descaling

Unknown

So what would be the best way to descale a machine that is plumbed in?

I do have a tank and thought I could put the pump back in and fill the tank with cleaning agent of some sort but I am wondering if there is another way to do it.

All suggestions are appreciated

Kfir

You can probably fill the boiler manually with descaling solution by removing the vacuum breaker or any other tube that connects to the boiler from the top.
If you want to be more thorough you will probably be better off removing the boiler completely and soak it and all the pipes in a bucket of citric acid.

But the best way is to avoid that, I am using a 8 liter resin water softener for years and did not had any scale issues whatsoever in any of my machines.

Kfir.

Unknown

Kfir post=666 wrote: You can probably fill the boiler manually with descaling solution by removing the vacuum breaker or any other tube that connects to the boiler from the top.
If you want to be more thorough you will probably be better off removing the boiler completely and soak it and all the pipes in a bucket of citric acid.

But the best way is to avoid that, I am using a 8 liter resin water softener for years and did not had any scale issues whatsoever in any of my machines.

Kfir.

That is correct, avoid the problem if possible, but apparently my system of softening and filtering is not good enough by what I saw on the water wand when I removed the tip.

I have been using an Everpure ESO7 cartridge. I really need some good water measuring system to tell TDS, PH, etc.

You say you are using an "8 liter resin water softener" . Brand, output numbers , water condition going into it? Lots of variables to get good water.

Kfir

I am using something like this one (only it costs here about half the price):

http://www.espressoparts.com/V_104

I also installed an inline filter like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BA9DEQM?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

The filter installed on the line after the dva water softener and it feeds the pipe that goes to the L1.
I also added a small splitter and installed a water tap on the kitchen sink so I can use the soft water for the iron and other stuff.

The dva softener is used here almost in any commercial equipment and Iif it's good enough for a small coffee shop than it's good enough for my small machine ;-)
The water is just for the machine, I only drink mineral bottled water so for my 2-3 espressos it works great.

My previous machine did not have any scale buildup (not even a bit) after 2.5 years using the same setup and we have a very hard water here, it's the best softening solution I ever used.

Kfir.

Unknown

Thanks for your input Kfir!

S.

Patrick Bennett

Hi guys,

My treated water (as of the last audit in 2012) is coming into my house at 18mg/L or 18.021ppm or 1.3 Grains (CaCO₃₎

I have an inline 10" filter for sediment, chlorine taste etc of 1micron.

Given the espresso water softener you listed Kfir, at 10 cups a day and my grains of hardness, I would only have to change the salts every ~11,000 days.

Initially I figured I didn't need any softening of any kind, these figures seem to back that up. Just looking for your thoughts and opinions guys.

Cheers,
Patrick

Kfir

I know it's an overkill for my usage but it's relatively cheap an a reliable solution.
I run 1 kilo of salt through it every 4-5 months or so and replace the inline filter every 6 months.

Stephen sorry for not posting any technical specifications, I really don't know them and I chose this solution by a suggestion from a friend who understand this way better than me.

Kfir.

Unknown

My Everpure ESO7 filters particles down to 5 microns so it is nowhere near as fine as the 1 micron that you are using Patrick. What brand/model filter are you using?

So if I understand this correctly you are getting 18ppm/liter or 1.3grains/liter coming into you home. What are you getting out of the system to your machine?

Does anyone have recommendations on what is best used to determine PPM or GRAINS/Liter or gallons?

Reiss Gunson

hydrogen ion replacement softeners, eg Clairis Everpure & similar are OK if your water isn't too hard

but in London, and indeed many places in the UK and Europe, the temporary hardness is often 350mg/L (ppm) and more

at these levels the economics switches, so before you scoff at RO being a stupid over the top 'gold plated' solution (as i have done in the past), when you run the numbers it turns out that RO systems like the PurePro one detailed by Stephen Jenner elsewhere in this forum are more economical to run than hydrogen ion replacement systems when your water is really hard

with an RO system you will of course need to remineralise the water at the end, or your espresso will be as bright as brass, using a calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate filter, also detailed by Stephen Jenner. as he learnt from trial and error, this filter needs to be sufficiently large as the remineralisation process is a contact one, so the amount of water you draw off in any session needs to be less than the volume of the remineralisation filter or your hardness will fall too low

target a temporary hardness of not less than 50mg/L to not more the 85mg/L

Unknown

Just ordered your testing equipment AND a digital meter. My test strips were to vague for my liking.

S.

Reiss Gunson

i know thank you. is your digital meter reading TDS, or just temporary hardness?

Unknown

Reiss Gunson post=685 wrote: i know thank you. is your digital meter reading TDS, or just temporary hardness?

A digital meter TDS.

http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/com100.html

joe jeczen

I have this installed by itself, will I be ok?

Unknown

The key thing to consider is what the water looks like (chemically) before it gets to the filter and see if the OCS2 meets the criteria you are trying to achieve.

James Springfield

Ive got an RO system very similar to Reiss and it works brilliantly, cost about AUS$500
I ended up with a different calcium cartridge that reiss recommended though

http://www.psifilters.com.au/reverse-osmosis/undersink-reverse-osmosis-systems/4-stage-reverse-osmosis-under-sink-premium-model-psi-021-4p#.UmcPeTIayK0

Reiss Gunson

ah, yes mr springfield

reiss can't take any credit for that I'm afraid - it really has to go to mr jenner who started off with an everpure claris hydrogen ion softening filter system, then when he discovered they were not really an economic solution in very hard water went looking for something better, having already had an RO system in the house for 20 years or more, if i remember rightly

but yes, the pure pro RO franchise seems pretty widely available, but stephen's locally cooked up calcium and magnesium carbonate remineralisation filter is all his own doing, in particular the discovery that it needs to have sufficiently high volume as it is a contact process

my RO system I'm ashamed to say is still unopened in its box, awaiting the arrival of the L3

best

reiss

Unknown

Reiss Gunson post=681 wrote: but in London, and indeed many places in the UK and Europe, the temporary hardness is often 350mg/L (ppm) and more


target a temporary hardness of not less than 50mg/L to not more the 85mg/L

With that high level of Hardness (350/mg/L)I would bet the plumbers are a busy bunch of workers replacing valves and appliances regularly! I do not think that sort of hardness would get past the Municipal Inspectors here.

Thanks for this Post

Unknown

I just received the Water Test Kit from Reiss. Very easy to use and it is showing that my water BEFORE the filter is close to 80ppm and AFTER the filter it is closer to 40ppm. Since it reads in 20ppm gradients that was about as close as I could get.

I also received the day before a digital meter that reads in TDS of KCL, NaCL, and got readings of 44ppm AFTER the filter and 76ppm BEFORE the filter.

Not to bad considering the filter is 9 months old. I will swap the filters at 1 year, which is their recommendation.

With the above readings do you think I should be adding/changing the filter setup??

James Springfield

your water sounds good enough to not even need a filter,

I have around 280ppm hardness before my RO, then after with a calcium cartridge i get around 80

Unknown

I was thinking the same thing, but then I just have to look at the shower heads and water spouts around the home and scale is an issue. I had a Rancilio Silvia that scaled up after 6 years and needed a tear down to boil out the boiler and clean all the other parts and I do not want to have to do that with this if I don't have to.

James, your water sounds hard enough to need a jackhammer to get it out of the cup! No wonder you use an RO system. What sort of numbers are you getting AFTER the filter? Never mind, I finished reading your Post, DOH!

James Springfield

it's not normally this bad here, but they're upgrading pipes throughout the area, and we're in drought etc
I'll let you know in the morning before and after numbers
oh i received the new acrylic funnel too, cheers for that

Unknown

Glad that is working out for you!

Reiss Gunson

whatever water test kit you are using, indeed any kind of testing, always run the test 3 times to check that your results are tightly grouped together

if the results are all over the place there is likely to be something amiss in your technique - investigate/ask for help

on your system stephen I'm not sure if it has a bypass valve (with allows a proportion of the water to avoid being softened (but all of it is filtered - keep filtration & softening quite separate in your mind), but a by pass valve is common and this would allow you to lift the temporary hardness up to say 60ppm (mg/L), which i think would make your espresso less harsh, and more rounded & smooth to taste

of course, you might like it just the way it is, in which case feel free to ignore it all :P

Unknown

I too was thinking about the bypass valve head on the filter.

I know our city has several wells that they use and frustratingly switch between at their convenience! I suspect that it throws the water numbers around when doing it so I try to stay ahead of them, or at least up with them. They are about to bring another well, #12 is what I believe they call it, on line. It is at the end of our block, about 10 feet above sea level! They drilled down to 1000 ft for fresh water and so far they are releasing no information on water quality...

I will shoot for the 60ppm level, and yes, I took multiple readings

Thanks for your input!

James Springfield

Okey dokey

TDS Hardness. Alkilinity. pH
Tap water. 188. 250. 180. 7.9
RO water. 17. 40. 40. 7


I think my alkiliniser cartridge is wearing out, as i remember higher values before

Unknown

Thanks James

Has anyone used a Mavea ion exchange filter system with a bypass?

joe jeczen

Stephen Sweeney or Reiss,

I just ordered the COM-100 tds meter, but I'm just wondering if I would really need the temporary hardness kit from Reiss?

Perhaps the difference between the two?

Any insight would be great! :cheer:

~joe

Reiss Gunson

hi joe

TDS = total dissolved solids = the total of ALL solids that are dissolved in the water

limescale is caused by only 2 of the vast array of things that may be dissolved in the water, namely the precipitation of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate when the water is heated. the sum of these two is generally referred to as the temporary hardness value, or in the States, alkalinity

so, the temporary hardness (alkalinity, or carbonate alkalinity to give it the full title) value is always going to be a subset of the TDS value

The term carbonate hardness is also sometimes used as a synonym for temporary hardness

don't feel obliged to get our temporary hardness kit at all, but yes, i think you should source one from somewhere - I'm sure they are readily available in the States - tropical fish stores/websites would be a good place to look if you are having trouble finding someone who knows what you are looking for

reiss.

Unknown

Joe:

I would think that the Hach Test Kit might be a good addition because it measures by chemical reaction where the digital meter is measuring by electrical resistance through the water.

You could even add Hot Tub Test Strips for measuring other chemicals to get an overall picture of the water.


Hope that helps rather than muddy...

Stephen

joe jeczen

Stephan, Reiss,

Thanks so much, I never tire of this forum's friendliness!

~joe

Frans Goddijn

I bought this KH test set in a local aquarium shop:





I used 10ml of water:





This way, every drop of the test fluid added equals 0.5 ºdH

After adding the first drop:




Then I shook the vial as I did after each new drop. First the water turned blue and got a darker blue with each drop:




Than after the 14th drop it turned yellow:




So the water from my filter (the type one regenerates with salt) is currently 7 ºdH

I must confess I have no idea what this means because in this thread one speaks of 60ppm or mg/L, so I must look it up somewhere.