This forum is now read-only
To login to the new support channel and community forums, go to the Support Portal
L2 extraction questions!
So after few hours playing with the machine, different settings etc.. Here's some newbie questions!
1) I'm trying to extract around the 27s getting about 54g espresso with 18g grounds. Seems like the pre-infusion till the first drop only takes about 2-3 seconds (i'm on a medium-dark roast). I think my grind are fine, comparing to my cafe settings i can say it's similar and at my cafe with the eureka & appia the shots are as good as it can get. I count the time from the moment i push the lever up (first drop of espresso) it'll take about 34 seconds to extract 68g (full extraction to the last drop) / 27second to extract 54g espresso (preferred extraction volume & ratio ). Question is : Do i count the extraction time including the pre-infusion ?
2) Am i pulling too much volume comparing to a pump driven machine? I've been comparing my extraction to those who posted videos and it seems like my volume are too much. Frans's extraction are even 1 second : 1g espresso. As with the shorter pull (27s/ 18g ground :54g espresso) My espresso tasted almost bland. Crema is very dark too which i've never experienced with this particular bean i've been using for 2 years. I'm confused as bland is the best i've been getting than pure sour and horrible bitter. Keep note that this beans are fresh..
3) Can the steam wand pressure and hot water pressure be reduced? I'm having quite a hard time controlling my milk.. I've also had the hot water splurging everywhere when i put a cup under.
4)I do understand that lever style machine could not be set to extract a specific amount of espresso like my Appia. But where should i start setting/calibrating my espresso then? Do i maintain my lever pull while only adjusting my grind and dose?
Would appreciate some help as this whole thing seems new to me!
1) I'm trying to extract around the 27s getting about 54g espresso with 18g grounds. Seems like the pre-infusion till the first drop only takes about 2-3 seconds (i'm on a medium-dark roast). I think my grind are fine, comparing to my cafe settings i can say it's similar and at my cafe with the eureka & appia the shots are as good as it can get. I count the time from the moment i push the lever up (first drop of espresso) it'll take about 34 seconds to extract 68g (full extraction to the last drop) / 27second to extract 54g espresso (preferred extraction volume & ratio ). Question is : Do i count the extraction time including the pre-infusion ?
2) Am i pulling too much volume comparing to a pump driven machine? I've been comparing my extraction to those who posted videos and it seems like my volume are too much. Frans's extraction are even 1 second : 1g espresso. As with the shorter pull (27s/ 18g ground :54g espresso) My espresso tasted almost bland. Crema is very dark too which i've never experienced with this particular bean i've been using for 2 years. I'm confused as bland is the best i've been getting than pure sour and horrible bitter. Keep note that this beans are fresh..
3) Can the steam wand pressure and hot water pressure be reduced? I'm having quite a hard time controlling my milk.. I've also had the hot water splurging everywhere when i put a cup under.
4)I do understand that lever style machine could not be set to extract a specific amount of espresso like my Appia. But where should i start setting/calibrating my espresso then? Do i maintain my lever pull while only adjusting my grind and dose?
Would appreciate some help as this whole thing seems new to me!
Comments
I've just finished reading the set-up thread you raised overnight; a cracking read and many thanks to Frans for supporting you while i was asleep
do watch frans' very informative videos, there is one for each of the three roasts we currently offer
addressing your questions;
1. what water line pressure do you have?
2. what baskets are you putting the 18g dose in?
3. smaller steam wand tips are available. the L1-P, L2, and L3 are primarily envisaged to be used in commercial environments so they are supplied with 4 x 1.4mm tips, which is what you want if you have large pitchers of milk to texture, but they will be boisterous with small volumes of milk. hot water wand you will get used to - you don't have to throw the valve fully open; partly open also works
4. if you can tell us what kind of coffee you want to make then we can probably provide more useful guidance. so, what is the total volume of the brew? are you adding milk? if so, how much milk? what are you serving in - paper cup, porcelain? how dark is the roast? what bean(s)? what grinder? etc the more information the better
kind regards
reiss.
2) Double shot basket that came with the machine
3) I figured i might need to use a bigger pitcher as well.
4) I've always use a 1:3 ratio with my beans. 18g in 54g out. It's a blend (mandheling / columbia) with medium-dark roast. Definitely porcelain. My problem is that with my default setting which is 18g:54g my espresso is tasteless to my liking and what i've always had. I've ran out of beans will only be getting them later today, i was trying a 1:2 ratio. 18g in 36g out in 27second but was stopped half way since i ran out of beans. I'm quite confused on the pre-infusion as well. What determines how long the pre-infusion should be done? i do notice that finer grind = longer pre infusion well, as that's basic logic anyway.
To easier simplify what i need to know is that, if i were to get, lets say exactly 18g of espresso, or 36g of espresso. Do i need to pull the cup off when i get the desired amount or is there a way to pull a shot with the lever that makes 18g or 36g of espresso. Because so far watching videos from other lever machine user, they tend to pull off the shot when the amount/time want is reached except barista like Dritan Alsela which to what i saw did not pre-infuse and had his shot to the last drop (which i assume is the amount he wants). I guess the answer for this would make me understand better of how to calibrate my settings.
if you want to dose higher, which i wouldn't with a medium-dark roast, then you need to obtain some third party baskets of greater capacity
if want to stick with your rule of three, then a 15.8g dose will mean you want a brew weight of 47.4g or thereabouts so pull the cup at that point from the coffee stream
for a 15.8g dose pre-infusion should be around 3 seconds with no drips during pre-infusion
the pre-infusion time is in addition to the extraction time
if it drips during pre-infusion either the grind is not fine enough or the distribution is poor
i would expect an extraction time of around 47, perhaps up to 50, seconds to yield 47.4g brew weight
what grinder are you using?
dont flush before the shot unless the group has been idle for a long time, in which case only a small flush of less than 50g should be used or you will cool the group too much
a short clearing flush of 50mL pulled promptly after the shot has completed and the PF is removed is also needed
let me know how you get on
reiss.
Lesson learned: take one basic routine and get that right, to your taste and then vary to discover over time what can be done. Hurrying to copy the taste of a different machine with the wrong basket for the dose is not the way. The best way to learn about coffee is make 500 espressos, not all at once but over several months and taste with dedication, getting all aspects right, from bean choice to grinder quality, tamp, distribution, timing.
Follow one simple routine like the one in the video to get started and then change small details, not all variables all of the time or your taste will be all over the place.
Enjoy the trip, do not force yourself to be a barista champion in one hour ;-)
I think I understand your question and will try to answer it. Forgive me if I get this wrong.
With the L2 (as with other spring piston lever machines I am familiar with), you would need to pull your cup from the from the flow of espresso when you have reached the target volume/weight in cup.
You could potentially let less water into the group by releasing the lever before it had filled completely, but this would not only be imprecise, but also would mean that the lever would 'take up the strain' further up its travel - resulting in lower pressure extractions. This, in my experience is to be avoided.
Just get used to watching your shot and/or your scales. This may be more challenging perhaps in a commercial setting, but your results will be better for it. Your routine will vary from that of a volumetric pump machine, but that is the way it rolls.
I wanted to add a couple of comments too. I had some excellent success with my L2 early on, then I started experiencing situations that I was unsure about. Treating these extraction problems as if the machine was a pump machine added to the confusion for me. It is not necessary for me to go over these things here, except to say that I needed to learn to 'feel' the L2 and not overcomplicate things. Between Frans and Reiss and others, there is some fantastic advice here which will help you get there.
Some things I have changed or incorporated that have helped me:
1) Upgrading to VST 18g baskets.. I have found they give better, more consistent results for the espresso I prefer. Most beans work exceptionally well for me between 16.5 and 18.5gr in, and between 22-30gr out. My grinder is on the poor side, and I believe better/more yield would come with an improved grinder. Also ensure your tamper is ideal for the VST if that is the way you go.. ie 58.5 (ish) mm.
2) Not overdoing the pre-infusion. I wait only until the group is full of water, then maybe half a second longer, before releasing the lever. I have found with some consistency that longer preinfusion can be deterimental to the espresso. You may find differently of course.
3) A quick cooling flush - say 50ml per group - if the machine has been idle for upwards of half an hour, will stabilise the temperature. Once the machine is in use during the day, this is not necessary again unless it sits idle for a period.. I always do a quick flush after each shot as recommended to ensure the thermosiphon is functioning.
4) I have found that I now enjoy lighter and medium roasts far more on the L2 than I have previously with other machines. The quality and boldness of flavours I experience from my L2 on these roast is such that darker roasts now just seem to taste 'roasty'. This is only a personal preference, but I would encourage anyone using the Londinium range to set aside their darker roasts, even just for a moment, and explore the capability of their machines with lighter beans too.
5) Trust the L2. Sometimes I felt like I wasn't getting enough enough feedback from the machine as to what it needed.. in the past I have had digital readouts, volumetric buttons to play with etc etc.. what the L2 'needs' is simple - it needs you to find a routine with it and stick to it - which is very much what Frans says above, I think. You will be rewarded with great consistency as the Londinium has rock-solid 'personality'.
I am no expert, not a barista and do not have vast experience with a wide range of machines, but I do have the L2 at home and have had some time with it. All the very best with yours... I look forward to your "Eureka!!" post here when it happens (and it will!) :-)
Cade
A couple points: If you're used to pump machines keep in mind that the lever seems to do better with a finer grind and light tamp. Tamping at 30# (or about 14kg) seems to be the 'norm' here for pump machines. Whatever your prep is, keep it and the tamp consistent. That's the real lesson. Just a thought.
Dosing- we use a small coin to check the space between the screen and the top of the puck once it's in the group to check the dose. Even without using a coin you can put the portafilter in the group and remove it to see if the screen leaves an imprint on the DRY puck. If it does then dose less until you don't see it anymore.
Throwing a US dime on top of the puck lets you judge the space between the puck and screen. That's what we do for pump machines, I don't see why it wouldn't work on the LII. I'm sure there's a comparable coin that you can use. Don't pull a shot with the puck, just put the coin on the coffee, put the PF in and remove it from the group head.
All that dosing advice is there in case 15.8gm doesn't work for you since you're not using Reiss' coffee. If the dose is too small your tamp base might hit the basket sides as it starts to angle in, you'll feel that happen.
Control the prep (including dose & tamp) and pre-infusion then you can work on which ratio you like. Start with a 1:2 (or 3) and keep trying different numbers. Only adjust the grind setting to get the amount in the time you are aiming for. Yes, that means going through a fair amount of coffee in the beginning! Lucky you!
I sample just about every shot I pull, because you never know! This is where I should point out that it's totally acceptable to spit out coffee when sampling. Just share that fact with those around you
Ultimately what you like best is a matter of taste, that's another reason to try everything. No shame in liking 40g in 22 seconds for example. It might help to keep a spreadsheet or journal and score (even if the scale is your own) each shot in the beginning.
I didn't see which grinder you're using. Grinders matter, I'm sure if you arrived at the Londinium you have chosen a decent grinder at this point.
Enjoy the journey!
Rich
I'm using Compak E8 by the way. Brewista Pro scale . RB Premium 58mm tamper Flat base. 500ml Motta Pitcher & Hario Hiroshi Sawada Pitcher.
Getting that dose to be tall enough in the basket to tamp and short enough to not hit the screen is important. Experienced Baristi can tell the correct dose almost by instinct after a while, and certainly get to recognize it once tamped.
Nice choice in grinder. I'll bet the Brasil doses differently vs the Peru. Switching coffee is a great way to keep on your toes!
1. Dose 15.8g ground to a fineness that when it is tamped the top of the puck sits in the middle of the press line that runs around the edge of the basket for the retaining wire
2. Shorten the brew weight to about 27g, delivered in perhaps 35 seconds, with an additional 3 seconds of pre-infusion at the start
Let us know what that tastes like and further adjustments can be suggested
Trying to force a greater dose than a basket is designed for will end in disappointment on any machine, lever or pump. So if the brew is too watery with 15.8g dose, reduce the brew weight until it is to your taste
Kind regards
Reiss
Yes I filmed that one:
I am trying to get a base routine for me to be consistent for but in a way, i'm trying to get the ' base ' that i'm satisfied with which so far i haven't found yet though i'm close. I always have Dritan Alsela's routine to compare as with Frans which are both very different and i'm quite leaning more to get what Dritan's achieving (if that is possible) as i'm putting myself in a commercial situation which having a scale at all time for every shot is not ideal. Here in Malaysia, the usual and most common are Latte & Black with very little Espresso shot orders. For me, having to monitor the scale with every shot in a busy situation will delay my barista to achieve fastest yet delicious serving cup. This is of course to avoid piling orders too.
So far i only flush the screen after a shot pulled, i did not flush before pulling a shot as i have been using the machine for hours with just a maximum of 30 minute break (which i flush when i continue using) .
I am definitely getting better and getting there! Starting this with a pump style in head was a huge mistake hahaha.
Thanks a lot Reiss!
its gone very quiet :huh:
Machine wise you're in perfect shape now and the performance depends on the operator... an 18g or even 20g basket looks urgent.