Overcoming hard water.

Raphael Vasquez

Hello everyone. I'm eager to set up the L1 in my kitchen. But before I do that, I'd like to make sure I can supply soft water to it.

Londinium advocates Volvic water but I've never seen that brand in any local store I frequent in California's Bay Area and Amazon sells it for a ridiculously expensive amount.

On another thread here, it was noted that Brita filters may soften the water. I can't find any place on the USA version of the website that states that. However, I have found that claim on their UK version of the site for their jugs. Unfortunately, jugs are not available in the USA. I sent them an email earlier asking them about this--I'm awaiting a response. (Pur filters explicitly say their products do not soften water).

Alternatively, I could plumb a line in but that is not feasible as I'm renting and can't make those kinds of changes.

Another option is to use the Austrian cartridges. To be honest, that seems like a pretty pricey route.

To be clear, I'm not looking for the "best" water for espressos. I'm simply looking for suitable water that won't cause me problems in a couple of years. That said, perhaps this image would help me? Can anyone re-post it? The link is broken. http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/the-best-water-for-your-espresso-machine

Any suggestions?

Edit: If I can ask a follow up question. From what I know (and I don't know anywhere near as much as most of you), it seems to me like most manufacturers recommend periodic descaling in the case of scenarios with hard water. Londinium recommends to not get in a situation where you need to descale to begin with. That's understood but is this because potentially rebuilding an L1 is less desirable than doing the same to some other machine? (E.g. it's easy & less detrimental to rebuild a Silvia but not so much with an L1?)

Frans Goddijn

Raphael Vasquez post=9448 wrote: Can anyone re-post it? The link is broken.

It is not broken seen from here :

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/the-best-water-for-your-espresso-machine

PS Ah I see what you mean, the table in the blog has vanished.

It's best to find out what your local water is like, get an analysis and take it from there.

Unknown

If you can get 5 gallon jugs of softened water have you thought about a flo-jet to pump that water to your L-I?

You really have to measure/analyze your existing water to find out what you need as Frans has said.

Frans Goddijn

Indeed. Just having "softened" water is not enough. It's not like a washing machine where a 'softener' makes your towels nice and fluffy.

Water that's perfect does not need extra treatment. That perfect water if extra 'softened' can become too acid.

And since LONDINIUM owners live in about 40 different countries in many different regions, every one needs to first figure out what water he's on.

Reading about water quality can be fascinating. I frequently re-read the material because after 6 months or a year I have forgotten most of it, like one forgets the stuff one has learned for a high school chemistry exam.

Yesterday I even ordered a book about Water Quality:

http://scae-shop.myshopify.com/collections/books/products/book-water-quality-handbook?variant=1061005200

Investing time to learn some basic things about this can save repairs later.

Kfir

This looks identical to the Brita Maxtra line, maybe different branding in the US?

http://www.amazon.com/MAVEA-1001125-Elemaris-Filtration-Pitcher/dp/B002U50QQQ/ref=pd_bxgy_79_img_y

If it's similar to Brita it does reduce limescale but if you live in a place with very hard water it may not be sufficient.

Kfir.

Dan Streight

Why not just blend your own water mix? Whether for tank pour over or feeding from 5-gallon bottles start with distilled/RO water and add potassium bicarbonate per Robert Pavlis' thread about same on HB? This would seem to fully eliminate water science variability...one less thing to worry/think about.

Link to post here: http://www.home-barista.com/tips/constant-over-extraction-t31724.html?hilit=potassium#p364527

Raphael Vasquez

Excellent! Thanks for the suggestion. I've had an old Brita dispenser for at least a decade--it's time I buy a new one anyway. I just ordered it. I'm testing the water tomorrow.

A worry I have is... say I move to an area with hard water. Perhaps the pitcher may make it acceptable in my current residence but not in future ones. At which point, I'll have to either find an appropriate kind of bottled water (which I'm really trying to avoid) or find an alternative (likely expensive) solution.

I see this insistence on proper water a big drawback. I've read lots on this site about using suitable water. I haven't read anything about why this is so critical for the L1 and not, say, for a Rocket Espresso or Silvia or others. Surely, using suitable water is desired for any espresso machine but it seems like if you break that rule with the L1, the consequences are much more dire. Am I wrong with this view?

Frans Goddijn

There's a LOT being written about the subject elsewhere too, like

http://web.archive.org/web/20080526072324/http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html

That was written LONG before even thought of an L1 existed ;-)

Raphael Vasquez post=9492 wrote: I haven't read anything about why this is so critical for the L1 and not, say, for a Rocket Espresso or Silvia or others. Surely, using suitable water is desired for any espresso machine but it seems like if you break that rule with the L1, the consequences are much more dire. Am I wrong with this view?

I think you do not read this on a forum especially created for Rocket with the producer of the machine as active participant, because such a forum does not exist.

In the more general discussions about proper water quality to 1) prevent limescale and 2) ensure a good starting point for good tasting extractions, specific brands are usually not mentioned because the same holds for all machines.

Reiss Gunson

Firstly, a big thank you to everyone who has contributed

The L1 doesn't have special needs relative to other machines, but I would feel bad if someone bought an L1, hooked it up, and in 6 months it looked like a cement mixer

Sure you can run descaler through it and flush it thoroughly to rinse it out, but it's the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach

My first question is how much coffee are you going to put through it? If it's only for weekend or occasional use grit your teeth and go with the BWT filters we sell - I have recently increased the discount to 20% on packs of six and also added the larger L size

My next suggestion, as others have already mentioned is to get your water tested, or buy our simple and accurate kit

With that information you will know if your water is ok

If it isn't it is time to run a hardness test on a selection of waters from the supermarket, or the output from your water jug with a Brita Maxtra filter or similar

I'm sure it's not insurmountable, but step one is to measure and see if a problem actually exists

Another rule of thumb test I like to suggest; can you see lime scale deposits in your electric jug?

Raphael Vasquez

Hi Reiss. Thanks for the response. As well as everyone else! One of the biggest reasons I'm seriously considering the L1 is because of this very forum/community that is rich in knowledge and good will. It's one of Londinium's biggest assets IMO.

At the moment, I use my existing machine (silvia) about 20 times per week. Obviously it varies. Typically, that's divided into two people making either espressos or lattes.

I'm awaiting a Hach test kit in the mail (along with the Mavea water pitcher). Both should arrive today. I had the same idea about running a few tests on various bottles. (When I get around to this, I'll do my best to post the results here in case anybody else finds it useful.)

As for limescale on my existing appliances. The Silvia, i've descaled maybe 3 times (4 max) in the past two years or so. I don't have an electric jug. (I quick google search says that, apparently, most Americans don't.)

Thanks again to you and everyone for the help!

Raphael Vasquez

One more question to you, Reiss, if I may. Would you suggest against repeated descaling simply as a precautionary measure for the L1 (or any espresso machine for that matter)?

That's what I've effectively been doing with my Silvia up to this point. Not because I have very hard water (though I just read that SF bay area water is, on average, hard) but simply to protect my investment. The L1 or any other comparable machine is a much bigger investment so, believe me, I want to do whatever I can to protect it. Whether I purchase an L1 or some other machine, supplying it suitable water will be a priority for me.

As others have suggested, I'll have to do some reading on water.

Frans Goddijn

On a big machine, descaling the 'easy' way (running water with diluted acid through the system) can cause worse troubles than building up limescale. Often, just part of the limescale dissolves and disappears, the rest either remains in place or the grit starts to float around and ends up in weird places, blocking valves and other critical parts of the machine, causing a variety of worrisome complaints about the machine's erratic behavior.

The only proper way to descale is then to take the machine apart, descale all parts in a bath with ultrasound and then assemble the machine again. Even then, the acid eventually eats the tiniest bits off the sharp edges of threads for instance and eventually after rebuilding not all fits together as it should. Thread lock and tape can help then.

But the BEST thing is NOT to have limescale at all.

Unknown

Frans Goddijn post=9503 wrote: On a big machine, descaling the 'easy' way (running water with diluted acid through the system) can cause worse troubles than building up limescale. Often, just part of the limescale dissolves and disappears, the rest either remains in place or the grit starts to float around and ends up in weird places, blocking valves and other critical parts of the machine, causing a variety of worrisome complaints about the machine's erratic behavior.

The only proper way to descale is then to take the machine apart, descale all parts in a bath with ultrasound and then assemble the machine again. Even then, the acid eventually eats the tiniest bits off the sharp edges of threads for instance and eventually after rebuilding not all fits together as it should. Thread lock and tape can help then.

But the BEST thing is NOT to have limescale at all.

+1

Raphael Vasquez

Frans and Stephen,

Thanks for that answer. So this is the impression I'm getting... Descaling is bad on all machines so avoid it at all costs. The L1 isn't unique in this sense. However, because it's a not an insignificant investment to buy one of these (nor any other comparable machine), let's avoid having to rebuild it if at all possible.

I totally agree with this outlook, by the way. I'm awaiting the testing kit (should arrive later today).

I get the feeling though that rebuilding a Silvia, for example, is probably not that detrimental to the machine given it's relatively simple design and the fact that parts are commonly available (not to mention its relatively low cost). Rebuilding an L1, or parts of an L1, may have more serious consequences to the integrity of the machine.

I think this is less of an issue, though, because any machine that costs > USD $1000 IMO you should treat as an investment and would only want to run the proper water through it.

Raphael Vasquez

My test kit arrived. I'll spare you the common sense methodology I adhered to. Here are the results.

Using Hach, Test kit 5B:

Aquafina, bottled 0 soft
Safeway, Refreshe Purified, bottled 1 soft
Tap, filtered (Mavea) 1 soft
Crystal Gyser, bottled 3 slightly hard
Tap, filtered (Brita) 4 moderately hard (*)
Arrowhead, bottled 5 moderately hard
Tap (SF Bay Area) 6 moderately hard

(*) A note on the Brita filter. I'm not sure how old the filter I used was. I believe it's, at most, 2 months old. The Mavea, on the other hand, is freshly installed.

The numbers equate to grains per gallon. The classifications (e.g. soft, slightly hard, etc.) were suggested from Hach's website. This measures calcium and magnesium together, not separately.

I believe this is good news, can someone confirm any one of the "soft" water sources would be appropriate for the L-1? Is there something else I should test?

Thanks!

Reiss Gunson

hi raphael

good. a grain per gallon is 17.1mg/L from memory

i would say you want at least 2 grains and not more than 4 grains

i.e. colour change at 2, 3, and 4 grains is OK

colour change at 1 grain is probably going to make the water level sensor unreliable and the machine will over fill, or not refill, on occasions, hence the 2 grain minimum

5 grains indicates it is time to change your filter - that's how i would do it

hopefully it goes without saying that running it at 5 grains for a week until you get to the grocery store/whatever does absolutely no harm whatsover, but it is a little bit high and will be a useful indicator to tell you the filter needs changing

after a while, assuming your usage is relatively consistent week on week, you will get to know that a filter lasts about X weeks before it needs to be replaced

for what it is worth my understanding is the Brita Maxtra is a softening filter, but i believe they may offer other less expensive filters that are just a carbon filter and do not contain the softening resin beads

be sure that you perform any test 3 times to guard against outliers

measuring the total salts (i.e. magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate) together is totally acceptable, and out kit does that too

Raphael Vasquez

Ok. Good news.

So it can't be too soft because of the water sensor. Is this something unique to the L-1 or do you believe this is common to allor most espresso machines?

(I'm aware you probably don't know the internals of all/most machines but you might be able to shed some insight on it.)

Reiss Gunson

i think the level probe sensors we use are widely used in most espresso machines that have an auto fill mechanism

its simple and has been used for decades

all they rely upon is being able to complete an electrical circuit using the water in the boiler to carry the current

if your water is too soft there are insufficient ions in the water to carry the electrical charge through the water, so the electrical circuit can not complete

i honestly don't think you have a major issue

you have slightly hard water that needs to be softened a little, thats all

Reiss Gunson

to put your results into context, when we talk about hard water in london and places around the uk like norwich with hard water we are talking about results around 18 grains per gallon and greater

when the water is this hard the filter life is very short

with your water the filters will last for months - if you are only using it for making coffee and not drawing of hot water for other uses i expect you will only need to change the filter once a year, which isn't any great hardship is it?