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Londinium 2 group for US questions
I'm leaning towards getting a Londinium 2 for a retail cafe / bakery customer of mine (I'm a coffee roaster by trade) and have a few questions-
My experience with commercial espresso machines has been mostly HX machines, one dual boiler and a couple spring levers. I believe the spring levers are Astoria and La San Marco machines. Sadly, I have very little experience using the lever machines as they are not close by.
I did poke around here and on the web looking for some info, so apologies if I'm asking for something that's been answered. Any links are appreciated!
- What kind of daily / weekly/ etc. maintenance does the L2 require from the users?
- How about the ritual of pulling a shot vs a HX machine? Any real difference in flow?
- I realize this is in the realm of opinion, but I'm asking anyway. What kind of shot volume and time does the spring lever do with the supplied baskets? What size are the baskets too, while I'm asking about them...
- I read that the groups are temp stable because of the way they are heated, vs the dipper method. Is there a link somewhere to explain that more fully? I'm just curious.
- is there any advantage to insulating or not insulating the boiler?
-Are the commercial machines designed to be left on overnight? The scuttlebutt on all the HX machines that I've heard is that powering them on / off causes stress on the metal joints and doesn't give any real power savings.
I'm starting to be of the mind that simple = better in a lot a ways when it comes to using a good lever machine in a commercial environment assuming Baristi are physically capable of pulling a shot.
Ever consider designing a grinder Reiss?
Thanx!
Rich
My experience with commercial espresso machines has been mostly HX machines, one dual boiler and a couple spring levers. I believe the spring levers are Astoria and La San Marco machines. Sadly, I have very little experience using the lever machines as they are not close by.
I did poke around here and on the web looking for some info, so apologies if I'm asking for something that's been answered. Any links are appreciated!
- What kind of daily / weekly/ etc. maintenance does the L2 require from the users?
- How about the ritual of pulling a shot vs a HX machine? Any real difference in flow?
- I realize this is in the realm of opinion, but I'm asking anyway. What kind of shot volume and time does the spring lever do with the supplied baskets? What size are the baskets too, while I'm asking about them...
- I read that the groups are temp stable because of the way they are heated, vs the dipper method. Is there a link somewhere to explain that more fully? I'm just curious.
- is there any advantage to insulating or not insulating the boiler?
-Are the commercial machines designed to be left on overnight? The scuttlebutt on all the HX machines that I've heard is that powering them on / off causes stress on the metal joints and doesn't give any real power savings.
I'm starting to be of the mind that simple = better in a lot a ways when it comes to using a good lever machine in a commercial environment assuming Baristi are physically capable of pulling a shot.
Ever consider designing a grinder Reiss?
Thanx!
Rich
Comments
thanks for posting
with a guest login you should still be able to send private messages to the US owners of L2 machine that you can see in the L2 thread - Jenny Anaya and David Clarke and ask them about their ownership experiences as they have both L1 and L2 machines and are considering L3s as their businesses continue to expand
Rich
1 - in a busy commercial environment i would clean the shower screen every month, which is a 10 minute job - it is held in place by a friction fit seal, and this process is detailed in the permanent file of this forum in some detail. i would also put a genuine beeswax formulation on the handles every month (not the hideous silicone furniture polish rubbish - nothing with silicone in it)
2 - most pump machines deliver water at a constant pressure, unless you are considering one of the very high end machines which will allow you to vary the pump pressure, but all the machines i know of still only offer a step function, as opposed to continuously variable, but no doubt they will offer that in time. a spring lever machine delivers the water at a declining pressure as the spring expands to its resting length
3 - we recommend a 27g shot being delivered in 27s. with the L2 and L3 you will get a shot of greater volume of around 55mL if you allow the pre-infusion to run for an extended period, or raise the line pressure. the baskets supplied are nominally double baskets and in my experience i would suggest a dose of 15.8g
4 - dipper groups by definition are mounted to a flange on the boiler to keep the group warm. when they are used to pull consecutive shots these groups will over-heat. bosco offer what you might called a modified dipper design where the group is still used in dipper configuration, but they weld a piece of pipe on the back to create a chamber to hold water against the back of the group, albeit at a cooler temperature than if the group was mounted directly onto the boiler. this modified dipper design works reasonably well if the group is in semi-continiuous use, but will go cool if the group is left idle for 5 minutes of more. thermosiphon groups are not mounted to the boiler, and instead utilise a thermosiphon circuit to keep the group at the correct temperature. each time a shot is pulled the flow in the thermosiphon is interrupted, meaning the additional energy brought into the group from the shot being pulled is offset by the loss of thermal energy as a result of the thermosiphon being interrupted
5. - i know of no commercial machine that has an insulated boiler
6. - yes. it is a very traditional italian view to say never turn the machine off. my suspicion, and that is all it is, is the advice is based on the risk of your staff being late to work and then you losing an hour of trade whilst you wait for the machine to heat up. we don't leave our motor vehicles running over night because of the thermal stress from turning them on and off and i can see no reason why a much more simple engineering design should be especially vulnerable to thermal stress. with the advent of digital control boards for electrical devices there is no reason why the machine can not turn itself on at the same time each morning, so even if staff are late to work the machine is hot and ready for service the moment they are in the door
7. - hmmm. don't know. look at grinders from Compak, Caedo, and Mahlkoenig in the meantime
About the maintenance, do you have a full list of all maintenance that should be perform in a commercial environnement Reiss? You mentionned the screen cleaning above but what is the schedule in commercial use for the group cleaning/lubrification, seals replacement, etc.. It will be nice to have a full maintenance schedule list with an approximate "time require" to do the job. I will meet this week a new café owner that will open this summer here and i want to recommand them to go with a Londinium lever but i will need to have more infos about the maintenance in a light commercial use.
Thanks,
Seb
Seb- i'm guessing the permanent file Reiss mentioned with the maintenance info is currently for owners, or I just missed it. I'm inclined to believe that a lever machine requires a little less maintenance (and very different) on a daily/weekly basis vs the pump machines I'm used to.
I see what I did there on #2, used the word flow which I meant as work flow and Reiss took as, well... flow. My bad!
I was aware of very few insulated boilers myself, so I only asked about insulation because from a non-engineer (and admittedly ignorant to design) perspective it seems like a good idea.
Reiss-thank you for that opinion on leaving the machines on. I don't think I'll tell anyone otherwise at this point, but if/when I get an 2 group I will apply pass that on.
As to grinders- I enjoyed your take on the e10, in fact if I thought I could plug one in here I'd consider getting it with the espresso machine! I am currently evaluating a Ceado e92 and have concerns about ground coffee retention if I were to deploy it in a cafe. The Mahlkoenig EK43 also has my full attention but I haven't seen any in use yet.
Even if this potential customer doesn't move when their lease is up I can use a 2 group Londinium at the current location.
FWIW- I checked with Nuova Simonelli about 58mm group lever machines, seems they do have them but they're not claiming the temp stability that Reiss is providing. So why settle?
Reiss- sorry my bank blocked the first CC charge from going through, hope that didn't cost you anything!
The Ceado e92 have a lot of retention but just as most big conical. This is not really a problem in a cafe with good volume but it is a big problem in a home environement. The EK43 is a very nice but "huge" grinder, great for light roast mostly. I had a wonderful shot of a nice Kenya that was on the light side last week, it was full of citrus, mostly lime juice in mouth but still good even if i am not a big fan of theses type of espresso shots. You may want to take a look at the new Peak grinder from Malhkonig, i am keeping a close eye on it.
Edit: Congrat on your new machine
Have fun with your new machine!
we have L2s in stock, so that is no problem
just wanted to check that you know it is 240V, and 4000W - to ensure you have the power ready when it arrives
and finally, just wanted to check that you know we send the L2 and L3 sea freight to keep the cost down
if any of these points are an issue, please let me know
thanks again, i will set the wheels in motion as soon as the UK comes online later today
reiss.
Also sea freight is fine, there' said lease that will be up in a few months which factors in so there is no rush.
So I think we are good to go! We are at 5000' elevation and a warm climate, in case that helps.
by way of an aside, the altitude makes no difference as the moment the anti-vac valve pops up the boiler is a closed system and is heated to a set pressure, around 1.3 bar, whether it is at sea level or at the top of a mountain
kind regards
reiss.
hi seb
without wanting to come across as flippant, i think it is important to note that 'traditionally' lever espresso machines were used until something broke
but to answer your question, the most important aspect that must receive a schedule maintenance routine is whatever water filter and/or softener that is in place. that is your first line of defence against all the number one threat to any espresso machine; limescale formation (assuming the water is hard)
i bang on about it quite a lot, but it really can not be over-emphasised. if you let limescale into your machine you are being irresponsible as it drastically reduces the service life of any espresso machine
all filters need to be replaced annually at a minimum. in my view softener units need volumetric meters and alarms on them - changing them at date intervals is either going to be costing you money or providing inadequate protection for your machine
if you are militant about monitoring the change intervals on your filters then everything i write next is trifling really - if you don't do the things i list below the coffee might taste below its best until you do perform that cleaning task, but you will not have incurred expensive damage to your espresso machine; i think this is an important point: maintain your water treatment equipment first and foremost!
unlike a pump machine a lever machine must not be backflushed, and of course as there is no suck back there is no need either
a good beeswax nourishment for the wood handles once a month will keep them in tip top condition - i can't believe how well they are standing up to it
the piston seal life is really a function of heat, rather than number of coffees pulled i think. i have my machine at home on 18 hours 7 days a week and the seals are lasting a year. in a very busy commercial environment i can see that a fastidious owner might drop the piston seal replacement to every three months, but again 'traditionally' they were changed when water started leaking out the 4mm relief hole in the forging on the back of the top of the group - i have never experienced this since using Loxeal no.4 grease. that isn't to say it won't eventually happen, but just to convey that i think it is a very good grease for this application
removing and cleaning the shower screen is a function of usage and in a very busy commercial environment in the hands of a particular owner i can see they might drop those every friday afternoon and give them a quick clean. but most operators are not going to do that more often than monthly, and for a quiet cafe every 3 months would suffice
now that we have the Loxeal no.4 i am not aware of anyone having to change the seals in the toggle controls - i would anticipate this being not more than annual for a busy cafe, and less frequent than that for a quiet cafe - i haven't touched the seals in my toggle valves in my L1 here for almost two years and they are not even looking like needing attention
i do not know of one machine anywhere that has needed the element to be replaced, which i am very impressed with
anti-vac valve i would replace every two years i think
pressurestats just go and go, especially as we now fit the 30A model to all of our machines: engineered to last!
clean the surfaces of the machine and drip tray down at the end of each day
that's about it i think, but i will include all of these guidelines in the new, standardised manual for the L1 - P, L2, and L3
kind regards
reiss.
Another thank you for the insight to maintenance on these machines. My immediate response to the line how 'traditionally lever espresso machines were used until something broke' was - HEY, that's how our customers use their pump machines. This in spite of the warnings we constantly give people about scale build up, back flushing every day, etc. I will use this information as yet another reason to go with the L2 to anyone who asks. My tech was happy to hear I was getting a machine that doesn't have a 'brain' or touchpads.
Including those instructions in the manual the way you just explained it will be greatly appreciated. Real maintenance should be done by use and not simply time passed and you have pointed that out. At the same time it's good for us to have ballpark figures (suddenly I'm aware of my US English.. hope everyone understands that).
I'm going to send a link to this discussion for our tech to read, he'll have a nice smile on his face no doubt.
It is sad when I go into a coffee shop that has a Lever Machine and see that the barista has no clue as to how it should be operated or maintained; it sounds like you care and kudos to you for taking the initiative to get all the correct info you will need :-)
My problem is I'm a wholesale roaster so the shops I supply have to keep the quality up or we all look bad. So I'm not in direct control of the Baristi using my coffee. I thought if I offered free trainings 2x a year that would solve any problems. These shops have a fair amount of turnover. The sad truth is that me being free is one thing, but training still costs money and is hard to schedule. I should be doing these training at LEAST every couple weeks and it's more like every couple months. Sigh. I'll figure it out. I used to own a retail shop, I will not do that again.
Part of my deploying the lever strategy is that it will intimidate Baristi then I can train them and build confidence and understanding. My hope is that it will be a conversation piece, create scuttlebutt and raise customer's awareness of what's really in their cups with regards to the coffee.
If I ever did have a retail location it would be called 'Poco- ma Buono!' since that philosophy carries from the small batch roasting through to the espresso shots. Heck I could even call it 'Ma Buono!' and people here would think it's a family joint. Or 'Poco Ma...' which almost sounds Spanish.
Which reminds me, does this happen elsewhere on the planet -it seems here everything sounds better in a different language. 'Green View Estates' is okay but 'Vista Verde' sounds better to the locals. If I had a shop called 'small, but good!' that would just sound... stupid. But in Italian... bellisimo!
Pull a super shot for the beginning of each Baristi class and say you graduate when you can duplicate it with this grinder and these beans. If they are curious and like to learn something a bit different, which is really a tweaking of pump machine knowledge, then it might be fun.
When I read you're not far from Phoenix that got me excited because I visited a friend there years ago and drove around a lot during my short stay. Wonderful landscape.
Prescott looks good too! Haven't been there.
I recently was in the audience at a presentation /discussion of a roaster and two owners of a specialty coffee place. The roaster, to my surprise, explained that 70% of his retail customers did not prepare the coffee as best as was possible with his beans and the machinery they have. Despite the free courses he offers to his clients who can send staff for unlimited training. The staff rotates / refreshes too fast to keep everyone performing well enough.
http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.nl/2015/02/coffee-night-at-torpedo-kitchen.html
Keeping the espresso machine simple, without lots of pads and pumps and pedals and dials and valves that need servicing is a splendid approach, I think. Too many cafe owners go for the super car design with all the lights and dazzling extras and forget that all that needs to be operated by guys and girls who are not that much into gadgetry.
Thank you for sharing the story (and link), it does help to know that I am not alone!
Right now I'm investing in my theory about going 'retro' and keeping it simple. With a decent grinder. Most likely a K8 fresh as that's what I own right now.
So many things wear owners down that by the time it gets to giving any time/energy to the coffee they are spent. I have been there, but this is my thing and if I'm going to be doing coffee then I'm going to be doing it at my personal best. Even if that means I am often heading full speed towards a windmill with a lance.
I guess in 2015 Arizona I can update that to charging a solar farm with a Remington 870 and covered in kevlar. Somehow that isn't as sweet as the Quixote analogy. In fact, it's downright disturbing.
What a great Avatar! On horseback (maybe pony) with an 870 goose gun, charging a solar array. The neighbors would talk
I can imagine you crashing through that landscape in my 2007 pictures
Yes, we have big skies. I'll post one sunset picture and that's all. This was a real sunset.
The mountain above the city lights on the right is Granite Mountain.
Ah, so you're in Prescott Valley? If you have your L2 set up when my wife and I are in Prescott this summer, would you be amenable to showing off what you (and your beans) can do with it? :cheer:
Assuming the machine is here when you are. Most likely it'll be at the warehouse where I roast and not in a cafe.
Even if it's not here you're welcome to stop by and I'll pull some shots with that I have there. Just give me a head's up on which days you'll be in the area.
ship sails this friday for Los Angeles
unfortunately we lost about a week with our contact at the freight forwarder away on bereavement leave, but we are back on track now
very much looking forward to having this machine delivered to you
reiss.
Thank you for the update.