Some Pre-sales questions

Michael Hart

Hello everyone. First I want to apologize if my questions have been asked numerous times. I have tried to go through as many threads as possible, but I am starting to see double.

Quickly, I have a Breville Dual Boiler and I am looking to upgrade my machine. I have been looking at other double boilers and I have stumbled upon the Londinium 1. From what I have seen on this forum and home-barista, this machine seems to be very consistent at producing great espresso (my go to cafe in town blows my espresso away...equally frustrating and motivating!!), so I am looking forward to upgrading!

Now to the things that are holding me back:

1) Cabinets: Anyone have issues with cabinets above the machine? Does it interfere with opening doors? Is it a pain to fill the water tank? All of the counter space in my kitchen has cabinets above them.

2) Ease of servicing: I unfortunately have two left hands (right handed) when it comes to home improvement. Would someone like me do more harm than good when messing with this machine? I see that there are a lot of resources available to walk me through things, but I am a little timid to work with these things.

3) Water: I have extremely hard water. I am going to test it first and then report back on how I should handle this, but I am worried about scale build up in the boiler if I plumb the machine......speaking of that....is it pretty straight forward plumbing in the machine. I see that all of the fittings are now included ( I live in US).

Thanks for any insight and tips.

Michael

P.S. I have a HG-One 2014 grinder.

Unknown

Maybe this photo will help.




Notice that I have offset the L-I so the upper door could swing out to the Lever?




The HG-One just barely slide under the cabinet uppers.

Michael Hart

Thanks Stephen. Unfortunately I cannot offset.... Below is my allocated counter space that my wife let me have... My refrigerator is on the left and I plan on tapping into the ice machine line.

Unknown

It looks like it would fit in the middle with the Lever between the two upper doors. Doors swing out and away from the Lever. Grinders on each side :-)

Where are you located?

Reiss Gunson

FYI - my reply:

Hi Michael

Thank you for your enquiry

Firstly I think you should probably register on our site (it takes less than one minute) and copy and paste this email into the pre-sales section of our forum

This way you will hear from the numerous owners that we have in the States

1. Hard water: step one is to buy one of our test kits, or the Hach 5e kit I think in the states, and test your water. If you are above about 70mg/L total temp hardness then we need to take additional measures. However you don't want it softer than about 35mg/L so it's all about balance. From experience is say the best way is the use of a reverse osmosis unit which will take everything out of the water and then pass it through a calcite filter to lift the hardness back up to where you want it - this is discussed on our forum extensively

2. Filling: the tank has a capacity of 3 litres so it lasts quite a while unless you're drawing off a lot of hot water. Unless your cabinets are low there is a good chance you will still be able to fill the tank. I suppose you could use a funnel and short length of hose to fill it

3. The plumb in kit has everything you need, finishing with a 3/8"NPT thread for America

4. The lever unscrews easily. Customers with cabinets typical place the machine so the lever stands up at the point where the cupboards above open - this allows the cupboards to open without hitting the lever

5. If you keep the scale out of the machine any jobs needed will be very straight forward. If you did scale it up you would take it to an espresso repair guy like any other machine and he would pull out the boiler and drop it in an ultrasonic tank with de scaling agent for a week and then screw it back together

6. Lead time is about a week currently

The machine you have had is what I would call a consumer grade machine - what we offer is commercial grade - to give you some idea it weighs over 70lb!

Kind regards



Reiss

Michael Hart

Stephen Sweeney post=5918 wrote: It looks like it would fit in the middle with the Lever between the two upper doors. Doors swing out and away from the Lever. Grinders on each side :-)

Where are you located?

Thats what I had in mind.... Wasn't sure if a lot of people have done that.... I have a total of 24.75 inches in counter space... 13 inches is extended from the cabinet. That seems like enough space doesn't it?

Also, I am in Indiana.

Thanks
Michael

Unknown

Well, you certainly not close to here! I was hoping you were in the northwest so you could see this setup.










Standard 12" deep cabinets, with ONSET rather than INSET doors and they add another inch. So, total depth of cabinets is 13".

Reiss Gunson

Hi Michael

I presume you have seen the ^{recent post} in this pre sales section that provides a diagram with additional dimensions?

Kind regards


Reiss

Michael Hart

Stephen-thanks for the offer that is very generous of you.... And yes unfortunately that would be a long trip! Also, Thanks for the additional pics.

Reiss- I did see that.... Looks like if I put the machine at the edge of my counter, I will have around five inches of space between the upper cabinet and the handle. Seems like that would work.

Unknown

You must have a very wide(deep) counter to consider where to put the L-I to the front or the rear of it! My counter measures 24" from the backsplash to the front of the bullnose edge.

Michael Hart

My counter depth is 25 inches..... Looks like the machine is 21 inches.... So if I pull the machine to the edge, I will gain four inches......... My cabinet depth is 11.5 from my back splash. From the back of the machine to the bottom of handle is 14 inches.... So it looks like I will have +/- 3-4 inches if you take into account the angle of the handle which looks like it goes back into the cabinets a couple of inches.....

I am doing all these calculations in my head before I have had some caffeine, so please let me know if I am looking at that incorrectly.

Unknown

That must be 25" from the wall. You measured the upper cabinets from the wall or the backsplash which usually is on the countertop and extends up a few inches.

You apparently have tile on the area behind the machines and it is impossible to tell if it extends from a flat countertop to the bottom of the upper cabinets or not. And then how thick is the tile?

I seriously would not overthink it, you either want to buy an L-I or not, you clearly have the space and once you use a Lever Machine you will discover that having it closer to the front of the countertop is to your advantage. How tall are you? That is a factor.

Very tall people might want the machine on a taller/higher counter than the normal 36" counter height.

Michael Hart

Stephen.... You are correct that I am over thinking this... Looks like it will work, plus Reiss said it was easy to take the handle off and on... So that adds some flexibility with it as well. Also, I am 6 feet tall, so I don't think that will be an issue.

I am definitely interested in getting this machine... Just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row... I appreciate your time walking me through all of this! Makes this decision easier knowing that there are people here to lean on!

Next step is making sure my water line has the correct hardiness. This is an area where I have been trying to research and grasp what should be included in my water. My whole home softener can be adjusted and the company that sold me the machine will test my sample when I bring it in. Hopefully they will be able help me dial in the correct hardiness.

Thanks again

Unknown

Michael, if your whole home softening water system does not leave you with deposits on your faucets and shower screens dispersion screens then the only variable will be for taste. How does the taste of the coffee in the BDB taste? The pressure profile that comes out of a Lever will possibly be really big surprise for you if you have not tried espresso from a commercial lever machine. I got to test drive a Bosco 3 Group before I bought the L-I.

So I owned a LM GS/3 MP, which is a great DB machine, and the L-I could pull shots as good without all the PID fiddling. I just had to learn tamp and grind variables and what beans liked the P-Stat setting (temperature) and sold the GS/3.

I am short, at 5'6", so the standard counter height is just fine. The Bosco I tried was on a tall, perhaps 42", counter for the comfort of the baristas. I will see if I can share this photo/link. Pretty nice place!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Via+Tribunali/@47.6138783,-122.3200281,3a,90y,132.01h,83.79t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sIOv3OiNAzTfNFLytyaWj9w!2e0!3e2!4m5!1m2!2m1!1sLa+Tribunal+Pike+St.!3m1!1s0x54906acc6bd8c1e7:0x83187b4c1c2ab654!6m1!1e1

Michael Hart

Stephen Sweeney post=5967 wrote: How does the taste of the coffee in the BDB taste?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Via+Tribunali/@47.6138783,-122.3200281,3a,90y,132.01h,83.79t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sIOv3OiNAzTfNFLytyaWj9w!2e0!3e2!4m5!1m2!2m1!1sLa+Tribunal+Pike+St.!3m1!1s0x54906acc6bd8c1e7:0x83187b4c1c2ab654!6m1!1e1

Stephen, from my limited experience, i think it could be better. I pretty much have gone by the book, researching on home barista, watching videos on youtube, etc, and it seems like i am missing something. I have purchased a nice grinder, a calibrated tamper, and a scale that measures to the .1 gram, to make things consistent.

To cross check how I am doing, I went to a local coffee shop that sells blue bottle coffee (knowing I could buy some online). I tried their bella donovan shot, and then I ordered some for home use. Their shot had all of the flavors and even a great after taste. It was really awesome. My version, not so good (with fresh beans). All of my shots look text book. Six seconds of preinfusion, espresso doesnt drop until 10-12 seconds and it looks like honey dropping evenly from the spout. The flavors seem dull or even bitter. I am not exactly sure, because my palate isnt really refined.

I am hooked though and determined to get better. That is why I am trying to drill down on the other variables.

So again, I really appreciate you jumping on here and walking me through all of this. Reiss, I can take this convo somewhere else if you do not think it is adding anything to the forum...sorry to go off topic!

-Michael

Reiss Gunson

its all good michael, happy to have you on board. kind regards, reiss.

Dan Streight

Michael Hart post=5945 wrote: [quote=Stephen Sweeney post=5918]It looks like it would fit in the middle with the Lever between the two upper doors. Doors swing out and away from the Lever. Grinders on each side :-)

Where are you located?

Thats what I had in mind.... Wasn't sure if a lot of people have done that.... I have a total of 24.75 inches in counter space... 13 inches is extended from the cabinet. That seems like enough space doesn't it?

Also, I am in Indiana.

Thanks
Michael

In our former house I situated the LI between two overhead cabinet doors that barely allowed each door to open without repositioning the LI. It certainly, from your photo, appears this would an even better location solution for you given the space between the two upper cabinet doors.

Doug Olitsky

As Reiss pointed out in the link I had updated the schematic of the LI to show more of the dimensions. With that I created a mock up of the LI, to get a rough idea of how it will fit in my kitchen.

Unknown

Nice job on the mockup! Just add a papertowel roll tube to the top and you are just about there :-)

Doug Olitsky

Better yet one of my son's drum sticks!

Unknown

Great idea

Michael Hart

@Dan: Thanks for posting some more pictures. That is very helpful.
@ Doug: Nice mock up of the machine!

The last bit of information that I needed to get ironed out was the hardiness of my water. Over Thanksgiving, I was talking to my buddy about how i wanted to hook up my machine to the water line, but I needed to test it first, and he said he would be able to test it with his pool chemical kit. I took a sample over to him and he measured 350 ppm (not sure how reliable that pool kit is). I knew I had hard water, so that did not surprise me.

Any suggestions on how to get that level down to the optimal range (120-180ppm)?


Also, if the water is too hard, would hooking it up to a 5 gallon water jug work (with water that is measured)? If that is the case, I can move this operation downstairs into my basement where I do not have a water line, but I also do not have any cabinets to deal with...

Thanks again!

George Van Wagner

I bought the plumb-in kit with my L1, but after realizing that L.A. water varies from 80-300ppm over the course of the year, and that no affordable water conditioning can gracefully deal with that range, I decided to stick with the tank and use Crystal Geyser (which is averaging around 75-80 ppm from the source used for the water we get here). If you're not plumbing in, I'd recommend just buying gallon/4 liter bottles of appropriate water and just topping off the reservoir rather than hassling with what you'd need to to a 5 gallon bottle (as working from drawing water from a bottle would be harder on the vibe pump than filling from a pressurized line or feeding from the reservoir).

I also have a problem with the salinity that gets added to waste water with ion exchange or the just plain waste of water from RO, considering the current (and likely to be ongoing) drought conditions here in California.

Reiss Gunson

Hi michael

It would be helpful to know what you have 350ppm of, but let's assume it's the total carbonates present (calcium and magnesium)

At that level you will chew through water softening (ion exchange) filters pretty quickly and if it's hydrogen ion replacement (eg everpure) you may feel some fiscal discomfort. As George mentions sodium ion replacement adds a bit of salt to the mix, but is much less costly and is what most cafes use as it's cheap and cheerful

I suggest you take a look at Stephen Jenner's extensive post on this forum of how he deployed his PurePro reverse osmosis solution and added a big blue style of filter at the end to lift the hardness back up within a range of say 30 to 70ppm

The PurePro system is affordable and effective and is distributed worldwide, so while there is an initial capital outlay the ongoing cost is less that a hydrogen ion softening system if your water is as hard as yours is

George also makes valid points however which should be considered

Reiss

Dan Streight

Currently living in an area with hard water too. Until the landlord installed a sodium ion/exchange water softener system I was using a simple dual stage filter system from Chris' Coffee. But with ~350ppm hardness feeding the filter system the cartridge cost started to mount even for a universal non-proprietary filter system.

Pour over was a complete hassle for me so I switched to 5-gallon containers (pulled with a 110v Flojet + accumulator) of water sourced locally (Nestle) that typically measures in the 80-110ppm for temp hardness range. Water is delivered monthly and costs me $1.19/gallon. All is good.

Unknown

That Flojet and a 5 gallon bottle is a very good idea if people are worried about their water. Source the water your want and someone might even deliver it for you!

Dan Streight

As long as I get 5-bottles delivered per delivery...then delivery is done at no charge. Aside from having the 5-gallon containers sitting on the floor/in a cabinet/stand it was the overall best solution for me. Of course this is just another 'tool in the toolbox' and may not be a solution for everyone.

Unknown

If you are looking for a good use for those 5 gallon jugs I highly recommend cutting the bottom out of them and using them in the garden as a closhe style mini greenhouse, and a waterproof saucer.

Frans Goddijn

I have the system that regenerates with salt for dishwashers and since I regenerated last in may, I took out the test kits earlier this week. The water changed color on the first drop already so does not need to be regenerated yet. Unfiltered water needed 7-8 drops. I could be obsessive and worry about adding more particles to the water but as long as the coffee is delicious I will focus on other things!

Stephen Jenner

Frans Goddijn post=6219 wrote: I have the system that regenerates with salt for dishwashers and since I regenerated last in may, I took out the test kits earlier this week. The water changed color on the first drop already so does not need to be regenerated yet. Unfiltered water needed 7-8 drops. I could be obsessive and worry about adding more particles to the water but as long as the coffee is delicious I will focus on other things!

Actually thanks Frans, you have just reminded me...

I have (as far as I remember) never mentioned that I have a Kinetico dual cylinder (so timer free) water softener. The only difference this makes to my drinking water system though, is that my filters and the RO membrane do/will last longer, so I suppose that is why. The water still goes through the Pure-Pro system and then gets re-mineralised and stored.

Remind me Frans, do you use bottled water for your coffee?

Frans Goddijn

I use the normal tap water that the city provides. In the kitchen, the cold water tap water first goes through the filter and from there to the tap and to the L1. So all other water (kitchen hot water, bathroom, shower) is unfiltered and not draining the filter. In the kitchen I very rarely cook anything, so most water is used to drink or make coffee.

Pictures of my filter are here:

http://www.nonfoods.com/temp/ontharder/