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Londinium 1 vs Salvatore Spring Lever
I am close to purchasing a new espresso machine and have narrowed my selection down to the Londinium 1 and a single group lever machine made by Salvatore. Price is not a factor in my decision. Rather, build quality, reliability, and results in the cup are my greatest concerns.
Regarding results in the cup - to my knowledge, both machines use the "Bosco" lever group. Does this mean I should expect similar results from both machines?
Regarding build quality and reliability - I do not expect to find anyone with a Salvatore spring lever machine at this point, as he has not really produced many of them. But I find good reviews of the other machines he has been making for a number of years. Based on the knowledge shared in this forum, I do not have any concerns about the build quality of the Londinium, so the L1 has a running head start in the quality/reliability categories for me.
Are there other major differences in the units that I should consider? The Salvatore has a 6.5L boiler and a 3.8L reservoir. The heating element is 2000W. I am in the US, so the heating element on the L1 for me will be 1400W. The L1 boiler is 2.3L and the reservoir is 3L. Do these differences matter? Size-wise the Salvatore is a little larger, but still within the kitchen countertop range (which is where either machine would end up).
Thanks for considering my questions.
Regarding results in the cup - to my knowledge, both machines use the "Bosco" lever group. Does this mean I should expect similar results from both machines?
Regarding build quality and reliability - I do not expect to find anyone with a Salvatore spring lever machine at this point, as he has not really produced many of them. But I find good reviews of the other machines he has been making for a number of years. Based on the knowledge shared in this forum, I do not have any concerns about the build quality of the Londinium, so the L1 has a running head start in the quality/reliability categories for me.
Are there other major differences in the units that I should consider? The Salvatore has a 6.5L boiler and a 3.8L reservoir. The heating element is 2000W. I am in the US, so the heating element on the L1 for me will be 1400W. The L1 boiler is 2.3L and the reservoir is 3L. Do these differences matter? Size-wise the Salvatore is a little larger, but still within the kitchen countertop range (which is where either machine would end up).
Thanks for considering my questions.
Comments
Salvatore's machines are visually stunning, but at the price he's talking, you could buy almost two L1s for the cost of one of his levers (at least judging from what his attempted Kickstarter campaign was asking).
The price difference comes out to about 1000USD more for the Salvatore. Significant, yes, but not a major factor for me as I had almost settled on purchasing a GS/3 before I decided on a lever machine.
If the temperature stability was an issue, you could look for solutions, but currently there is no problem to solve there ;-)
You could consider getting an L2 though!
questions:
1 - do you like like the looks of one better than the other?
2 - are both machines in stock in case you want to order one?
3 - is the support network / forum of one the same quality as the other?
4 - L1 is backed by a major size factory in Birmingham, what is the backing of the other machine?
2. L1 appears to be in stock. Salvatore will be custom made. Whether I take ownership of the machine now or six months from now matters little to me, as I plan to use and enjoy the machine for many years to come. Now if I pay to have a machine custom built but never receive the machine, your second question would gain relevance for me.
3. Support network: are there problems with the machine that would necessitate a support network? The manufacturers of both machines seem readily available to provide support. I hope the machine I choose does not lead me to seek support, though.
4. Backed by a major factory: Londinium
But these considerations do not involve the mechanics of the machines themselves. Any comments on function or build quality? I may be asking too much, as the Salvatore hasn't reached the market yet.
If you like the looks of the Salvatore better I think that's what you should get, follow your heart and enjoy that adventure. I had a thrill getting an early Londinium and wait a bit for it and it was worth it, almost better than if I could have picked it up immediately ;-)
You will buy it and use it for ages, and if any service needs to be done you can do it yourself or ask someone who can do basic plumbing or electronics to do it for you.
Go for it!
If you dig the style of the Salvatore then go for that , for that amount of money you want something you like looking at you .
Personally I love the simplistic , retro look of the l1.
It's bang easy to use , and if the human variable in the middle is right then it's makes great wonderful coffee .
one group is thermosiphon fed
one of these designs over heats
one doesn't
Fair play , I m guessing I know which is which .......
I find the kickstarter route a odd one to take for a new design , for an existing company , but there you go .
Yes this one: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/752368609/handcrafted-spring-lever-espresso-machine/
I have sympathy for the care they invested in making nice videos and texts, even though there was much emphasis on "hand crafted" and dreamy imagery for a machine hand built/assembled with a standard group ordered in Italy.
The design is not my personal preference.
To me it's an example of how hard and very expensive it is to really get something in this field from idea / concept to actual real existing product to customers who are, when time comes, indeed interested and willing to buy.
Hats off to those who have actually succeeded in pulling this off.
I didn't realize that not all Bosco groups are created the same. As I'll be adding to a Cremina, I have a keen interest in thermal stability (something the Cremina doesn't exhibit).
they buy it from the same guys as we do, albeit theirs is in dipper config
kees van der westen buys his in thermosiphon config
quickmill use the same group in thermosiphon config
It is obvious to anyone who has followed the Threads on the various Forums that the term "Bosco" is referring to a style of a Group. Now referring to that style as a "Bosco" is not technically correct BUT NOBODY, including yourself, has said what the Group should be called!
How about giving it the technical name, or a Group Part Number, or something so we, the uneducated, could refer to the Group in terms that are correct and not offensive to anyone.
Like Porsche, you could say "911" is a style of Porsche or a mid-engine Porsche a "Boxster" (there were other P cars in this group) but there are so many offerings within those groups that it is fair to say that you cannot call all of them just a Porsche.
So What do we refer to the Group that Kees Van Der Westen and Quickmill and Bosco use? Not a KVW or a QM Group, or an L-I Group and not the Bosco Group, because they did not make any of them. Is it a General Motors Group? A Fiat Group? McLaren Group???
Inquiring minds would really like to know :-)
My decision is now between the L1 and Achille. The lack of a single group option on the Idrocompresso rules that one out.
If you are never going to plumb it is then both would have pumps if required to use a tank. I personally prefer the sound of silence in the plumbed in mode. All you here is the clacking of the water fill solenoid and the clicking of the pstat.
Yes this one: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/752368609/handcrafted-spring-lever-espresso-machine/
I have sympathy for the care they invested in making nice videos and texts, even though there was much emphasis on "hand crafted" and dreamy imagery for a machine hand built/assembled with a standard group ordered in Italy.
The design is not my personal preference.
To me it's an example of how hard and very expensive it is to really get something in this field from idea / concept to actual real existing product to customers who are, when time comes, indeed interested and willing to buy.
Hats off to those who have actually succeeded in pulling this off.
Er lads... I'm not entirely certain how this Kickstarter game works, but Salvatore looks like he has run out of time and is $40,000 short of his target?!?!?
Is this a problem for him and his prospective customers?
I heard that it was called the "Londinium" group Stephen
I heard that it was called the "Londinium" group Stephen
It probably should be because it is different than what Bosco is selling currently. They have a 4 seal Dipper design. It certainly does not look like a Francino styled Group which again is NOT made by Francino. So, a "Londinium Group" sounds best at this point :cheer:
Not putting Salvatore down, I've been to his store in Solvang,Ca. about three weeks ago and the machine is just alright .The fit and finish is o.k, nothing to jump up and down about.. I'm still waiting for my L1 and I hope the fit and finish to be outstanding. I'll have to see when it gets here.
Hi James,
Now this is useful information. Sure, it's one man's opinion, but if I didn't want someone else's opinion(s), I wouldn't look to a forum like this. You have laid eyes and hands on Salvatore's machines, and your thoughts influence me.
If I were to choose between the two machines at this point, the Londinium wins, easily. I think most important is the thermal stability of the group. But I am also of the opinion that the L1 is a better looking machine. Nicely done, Reiss.
Am I ready to buy? Not yet. My wife gave me the green light to set up my espresso operations in a larger space in our pantry. As the machine won't be displayed on the kitchen counter, size is no longer an issue. So I'm giving serious consideration to the Izzo Pompei, which has the La San Marco group instead of the Bosco group. I plan to visit a local vendor to try his out before finalizing my decision.
I have a friend who is local to Solvang and he is going to aim a Coffee Fanatic at it to see what he thinks. I will report the findings :-)
if i remember correctly the sleeve in that group is welded in per the Izzo specification, meaning that the sleeve can not be replaced as a service item - you have to replace the whole group instead. this is a non issue for a domestic environment as you will never wear the sleeve, but is most certainly a consideration for a commercial environment
In some ways, it's like guitar strings. There are really only two or three factories in the U.S. that have the equipment to wind guitar strings, but there are a whole bunch of string companies who spec strings and sell them under their own brand.
bezzera make their own lever group, but they are the exception to the rule really
faema went bust as a result of warranty claims arising on corrosion from stainless steel boilers, so think hard before you dismiss a copper boiler
copper has the highest thermal conductivity of any industrial metal (efficient to get to operating temperature), highly malleable, ductile, highly resistant to corrosion, etc. copper is the perfect metal for boiler fabrication. With today's copper prices it is no longer an inexpensive option either
the cremina has a stainless steel boiler and doesn't corrode, but the cremina boiler is not made from sheet metal like almost any espresso machine boiler is (whether from copper or stainless steel); it is really made from stainless plate (much thicker). as a result it does not need to be stamped at the mounting points for strength
unless quality control is very good, pressing a stainless steel boiler in the areas where the fittings are mounted is likely to displace some of the chromium in the alloy out of the pressed area. if the chromium content in the pressed area is sufficiently lowered the stainless steel effectively becomes mild steel, at least as far as its resistance to corrosion is concerned, and then you have a need for a new boiler in about 2 years after you purchased the machine
one of the most prestigious espresso machine makers in the States had this very issue with their stainless steel boilers a few years ago
True, the SCSL is a nice looking machine, but I just could not know if the espresso would be good. I finally got an L1 and I absolutely do not regret this choice... After about 15 shots, I pulled the nicest espressos I've seen in my life!
I haven't plumbed in my L1, but often I'm able to pull a shot without the pump cycling on. The sound of silence is a pleasure.