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Low water alarm?
Old version Londinium question. (And I am asking this out of curiosity, as it isn’t really a problem.:) )
I heard what I assume is the low water alarm, a continuous beeping, so checked water tank. It had a depth of about 10 or 15 cm water remaining, so getting low, but has been lower (no alarm ringing). I turned off the machine, filled the tank, turned it back on, and after a couple of minutes, the beeping started again. Didn’t stop.
I presume there could be an air lock or something throwing the “sensor” off... or am I completely wrong. I flushed a bit of water out, still beeped, so turned it off; I suspect it will resolve itself after sitting idle for a bit. (I had been doing a test run on unfamiliar beans, a half dozen or so shots, with 8 or 10 minutes between each shot ; normally, I don’t pull shots that frequently.
I am merely curious as to what might have triggered the low water alarm today (when this level of water hasn’t triggered it before), and once the tank was filled, why the alarm continued to beep? Wondering if it could be air in the system, or something unrelated to pulling successive shots?
Thanks!
I heard what I assume is the low water alarm, a continuous beeping, so checked water tank. It had a depth of about 10 or 15 cm water remaining, so getting low, but has been lower (no alarm ringing). I turned off the machine, filled the tank, turned it back on, and after a couple of minutes, the beeping started again. Didn’t stop.
I presume there could be an air lock or something throwing the “sensor” off... or am I completely wrong. I flushed a bit of water out, still beeped, so turned it off; I suspect it will resolve itself after sitting idle for a bit. (I had been doing a test run on unfamiliar beans, a half dozen or so shots, with 8 or 10 minutes between each shot ; normally, I don’t pull shots that frequently.
I am merely curious as to what might have triggered the low water alarm today (when this level of water hasn’t triggered it before), and once the tank was filled, why the alarm continued to beep? Wondering if it could be air in the system, or something unrelated to pulling successive shots?
Thanks!
Comments
if you enter in the search bar 'low water alarm beeping' or 'alarm beeping' or similar you will see that i have opened this question a couple of times over the years
when the machine thinks that there is not enough water in the system it turns on an audible alarm and turns off the heating element
there are multiple reasons that may cause the water alarm to come on, but an 'air lock' is not one of them
kind regards
reiss.
1. the max level on the fill probe is not reached after i think 30 seconds of the pump trying to refill
there are multiple causes for (1)
1.1 occluded solenoid valve - open and clean - instructional video in the permanent file
1.2 dirty level probe not correctly measuring the water level in the boiler
1.3 reverse osmosis water, distilled water, or glacier water, all of which which are too soft (not enough free ions in the water) for the low voltage electric current to carry through the water
1.4 the pump is no longer moving water
2. there is no flow of electrons between the two electrodes in the bottom of the water tank
there are multiple causes for (2)
2.0 there is no water in the tank
2.1 the water in the tank is reverse osmosis water, distilled water, or glacier water, all of which which are too soft (not enough free ions in the water) for the low voltage electric current to carry through the water between the two electrodes (the electrical resistance is too high)
2.2 the brass sprung loaded probes underneath the water box are not in contact with the stainless probes because they have been pushed down too far into their sleeved, resulting in the springs below getting trapped
2.3 the brass sprung loaded probes underneath the water box are not in contact with the stainless probes because the water box has not been fully seated into the water box carrier
2.4 the brass sprung loaded probes have corrosion on them and need to be cleaned with a brass polish
2.5 the wires connected to the bottom of the brass probes could come loose in the early machines (2012-early2013)
2.6 LR only: the 40mm of silicone tubing on one of the low level water probes has a bubble of air in it, caused by pouring directly onto the silicone tubing when you refill the water tank. to remedy squeeze silicone tubing gently to dislodge the air bubble. take care not to dislodge the silicone tubing when doing squeezing the tubing
there might be some other reasons i missed, but those are a few to get you started
I’ll search through the forum then, as the machine is still not responding. I mistakenly thought air might be the culprit. A mystery, so far.
This is an entirely isolated problem, and happened out of the blue, and the machine was running normally, up to this point.. although I did do 6 shots over an hour or so, which is not normal)
The only slight difference is that I cleaned the water tank two days ago, and perhaps in re-seating the tank, I dislodged a connection... but I’m guessing in the dark.
However, I will continue to work on this and review all the support files to see if I can find a simple solution. I am hoping the solenoid cleaning you referred to won’t be required! Sounds a bit challenging for my “skill level”.
the baking soda must have needed an hour so so to work it’s magic... the machine took a bit longer for the red light to come on, but come on it did... and it is heating up nicely once again & building pressure! Fingers crossed...
thanks, Reiss (and other posters’ comments, whose advice & info I read):)
kind regards
reiss.
Unfortunately, Volvic water (the oft recommended) is not available where I live. Is it fine to just keep adding a bit of baking soda to the water tank, or is that not a good long-term solution?
I do have the option of using Zero water, or distilled water, mixed with the designer/espresso water mix, the “Third Wave Water” crystals, if that is preferable.
I can’t tell you what a relief it is that “all is well with the L” !:)
Many thanks for being so generous with support.
yes, by all means add a teaspoon of baking soda & stir
ive not got any experience with third wave water, but i cant imagine that its use is justified in your situation as you essentially have nice clean water that is just a bit soft
if you were running off well water and bringing up sand and iron oxides (brown water) then that is a situation where you might look to that kind of product
kind regards
reiss.
Since this hasn’t happened until now, I’m guessing the municipal water is slightly higher/lower in mineral content at certain times of the year.... all very interesting!
I am very grateful for all your patience in answering my questions & directing me to solutions! Many thanks !
it will be absolutely fine
kind regards
reiss.
Enjoy a very Happy New Year!:)
How the water enters the boiler (directly from line or via tank & pump) does not make a difference in terms of scaling / hard / soft water. So to avoid extra work of plumbing in (and possibly regulating line pressure) I'd just keep the water tank.
I am currently adding a hefty dose of baking soda, for the sole purpose of engaging an electric current in the water tank. But the downside is that the soda affects the taste in the espresso. I thought plumbing-in might be an easy solution. The soda taste is quite noticeable, yet when I reduce it, the current is lost. (Once winter ends & the spring rains return, I suspect my water will work, without needing any baking soda; it did without fail until quite recently.)
If you can buy "Volvic" brand water that works well for both, I heard. Other 'mineral water' mostly is too hard and will scale up the machine.
Have you tried adding just enough baking powder to stop the alarm going off and checked the espresso for taste?
Did you mean “baking powder” or “baking soda”? (I am currently adding baking soda to the water tank.)
A teaspoon of baking soda is very noticeable (& not in a good way) in my espresso shots. (To mask its flavour, I have increased the amount of coffee beans in each dose, but it is not an ideal solution.)
Scrolling back in the posts, you will see my water chart & analysis. You’ll see it’s very, very soft; and now, with the change of seasons (I have to assume), the water is no longer providing the necessary electrolytes. (A month ago, the water worked very reliably without adding anything to it; but in the last few weeks it has triggered the alarm unless I use enough baking soda.)
As long as I put a teaspoon (5 grams) of baking soda into each full tank of water, the low water alarm is not triggered. If I try to reduce the amount of baking soda, the espresso tastes much nicer, but the machine soon recognizes something’s missing & then can’t tell that it has a full tank of water... so the pump first tries to engage for about 45 seconds (with green light on and a subtle humming noise); then, after the 45 to 50 second humming, when pump fails to engage, the alarm begins to beep. Topping up the tank with additional baking soda (& lots of stirring) then requires a 2 to 3 hour wait, before the additional soda has dissolved enough to provide the necessary current , to stop the alarm.
So, my problem now is that I find the teaspoon of baking soda in each full tank much too strong.
Unfortunately the recommended “Volvic “ water is not obtainable where I live. Bottled waters that are available here don’t provide me with information to know if they are suitable for espresso machines (i.e., won’t cause scale or corrosion). I would gladly buy a bottled water if I knew it was fine for the espresso machine.
If the plumbing-in option is not advisable, I will keep researching bottled waters. So far, I have not found an equivalent to Volvic. Anyone have recommendations for suitable bottled water in Canada?
> Did you mean “baking powder” or “baking soda”?
Yes, correct. Sorry.
You could short circuit the sensors to avoid any low / no water alarm, but 1) then you may not get a warning when the water is actually really low or gone and 2) too soft water could eat away at your boiler which would also be bad in the very long run.
You could ask a local specialty coffee roastery / cafe place how they deal with the water issue...
another possibility would be for you to post images here of the mineral analysis found on the label of the bottles of mineral water readily available in your area
from this we will do our best to deduce which would be suitable
kind regards
reiss.
One bottled water I bought (“Glaceau SmartWater” brand) stated only that it was “vapour distilled with electrolytes added; total dissolved solids less than 40 ppm, fluoride ions zero”... very limited information.
)Would it be a bad idea to try adding a pinch of Maldon Sea Salt flakes to my tap water? Would a tiny bit of salt increase conductivity any more so than baking soda... to allow me to use less, so taste is not noticeable?
im not sure what your process is for adding the baking soda, but my suggestion is that you mix it in a pyrex glass bowl, saucepan or other container (not an white opaque plastic) that allows you to easily see that the baking soda has fully dissolved before you pour the mixture into the water tank of the espresso machine
if you do not completely dissolve the baking soda you will find you are having to add more than need for the low water system to work, which will result in the taint that you are tasting
on the bottled water side of things you need to ignore the TDS value as this tells us almost nothing about the extend to which the water will product scale/precipitate in the boiler; a high TDS value is in itself fine
the two compounds that precipitate are calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. if you buy our water hardness test kit you can test the level of these two compounds in any water that you are considering using in your espresso machine
kind regards
reiss.
(p.s. The majority of bottled waters I saw today in my local store were spring water rather than mineral water; the few mineral waters they had were all carbonated!)
I’ll search a bit more for the bottled water, and ideally something with more details on the actual water chemistry.
I may be able to track down a hardness kit locally, if I’m lucky. (When I read TDS levels on the bottles I saw yesterday of 300 to 450mg, I just assumed they’d not be a good match. Some showed pH values and amount of fluoride ions, but not much more than that!)
Does the right hardness always guarantee good conductivity (in the tank)?
It also occurred to me my municipality may be able to give me some insight on why the water was able to conduct an electrical current earlier this year, but does not now... they may know more about the seasonal changes effect on our tap water chemistry. Would be interesting, if nothing more.
If I can get a bit more conductivity in the water (without any negative taste & without corrosion or scaling), all will be well! Perhaps I’m a bit too greedy in the wish department?!
I had this reply from my local water office:
“ We do measure conductivity at various sites in the distribution system and I looked at the results from Jan 2019 to Jan 2020. The average conductivity for the year was 91 us/cm, with the minimum measured being 67 us/cm and the maximum 109 us/cm. I also compared the conductivity at our sample site, which would be the most representative of your area, and our December and January result was 81 and 82 us/cm respectively. There are not significant changes in conductivity of the finished water but the small changes could be attributed to the different amounts of chemicals we add to the water seasonally. Do you know the low range conductivity your espresso machine is able to read? I would suspect that the issue lies with the electrodes or sensors as there is always some measurement of conductivity in the water. ”
I had this reply from my local water office:
“ We do measure conductivity at various sites in the distribution system and I looked at the results from Jan 2019 to Jan 2020. The average conductivity for the year was 91 us/cm, with the minimum measured being 67 us/cm and the maximum 109 us/cm. I also compared the conductivity at our sample site, which would be the most representative of your area, and our December and January result was 81 and 82 us/cm respectively. There are not significant changes in conductivity of the finished water but the small changes could be attributed to the different amounts of chemicals we add to the water seasonally. Do you know the low range conductivity your espresso machine is able to read? I would suspect that the issue lies with the electrodes or sensors as there is always some measurement of conductivity in the water. ”