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Boiler pressure stuck at zero
I've owned my machine for about 18 months and love it.
Today was a bad day: the boiler pressure is stuck near zero. I say near zero because if I power off and then on, I see the needle move slightly. This is the first I've ever seen of this. Was alerted to it because I heard the pump do a quick cycle. This normally only happens when I turn it on for a minute at night to fill up after the unit has cooled down or when I'm using it after it has heated up.
When I looked at it, I was surprised to see the red light on (it should have been at temperature) and that the boiler pressure shows zero.
Symptoms:
power light is on
red light is on
unit makes a sound similar to a kettle starting to heat up
boiler pressure indicator stays at zero bar
no pressure from the steam wand
no pressure from the water output
group head is warm (too hot to hold my hand on it for long)
What is the best procedure to determine what is wrong? I probably cannot get to this today but if you have suggestions, I'm happy to try and then perhaps face-time tomorrow.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Mark
Today was a bad day: the boiler pressure is stuck near zero. I say near zero because if I power off and then on, I see the needle move slightly. This is the first I've ever seen of this. Was alerted to it because I heard the pump do a quick cycle. This normally only happens when I turn it on for a minute at night to fill up after the unit has cooled down or when I'm using it after it has heated up.
When I looked at it, I was surprised to see the red light on (it should have been at temperature) and that the boiler pressure shows zero.
Symptoms:
power light is on
red light is on
unit makes a sound similar to a kettle starting to heat up
boiler pressure indicator stays at zero bar
no pressure from the steam wand
no pressure from the water output
group head is warm (too hot to hold my hand on it for long)
What is the best procedure to determine what is wrong? I probably cannot get to this today but if you have suggestions, I'm happy to try and then perhaps face-time tomorrow.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Mark
Comments
a video clip would be a great place to start
take your clip, upload it to vimeo (or youtube if you prefer) then post a reply here and when the text editor opens you will see a 'film' icon in the row of icons immediately above the text box and when you hover the mouse pointer over it you will have a drop box with two options; 'provider' and 'video'
choose 'provider' if the clip is hosted on a public site like Vimeo and then follow the process choosing Vimeo from the provider drop box and entering the video ID which can be easily identified if you click on the url in vimeo when you have your clip displayed
you dont need to size it, just click the 'add' button and away you go
reiss.
Just saw this - thanks for your response. Will upload a video later today.
Mark
I cannot explain it, but I guess my machine needed a vacation. I say this because today as I prepared the videos, I opened the case to measure voltages in hopes of helping the debugging, confirmed that we are getting good AC across the boiler contacts (113VAC; I'm in North America) and then waited. Using an IR thermometer, I watched the boiler temperature start to rise and now, the boiler pressure increased and settled in at 1 bar after a little time.
I was running straight off the main and thought that the problem might have been my Wemo control but after moving over to that and rechecking the voltages, things seem OK. Yes, there is about 1-2VAC drop across the Wemo but it seems fine.
Happily, I'm now back into ristretto land!
Sorry for troubling you,
Mark
Attached files
I guess the vacation is over. After working normally this morning when I turned it on, it is now back into the state that I saw a couple of days ago. The boiler pressure dropped from 1 bar to zero bar over the last few minutes. I've verified that the voltage at the pins of the boiler coil is 118VAC.
I'm new to uploading videos to vimeo so hopefully these come through OK.
The links to a few short videos are given below:
All of them have the password "LondiniumE" (without the quotation marks of course). If the password doesn't work, try "LondiniumE " (with an added space at the end; I think I got rid of the space on all of them but auto-complete was adding it after the first couple).
Mark
thanks for the videos
for a start i would ignore the pump activity as i believe this is what you can expect if the system is powered on yet the boiler pressure is no longer being maintained as the pressure in the pre-infusion circuit will fall as a result of the pressure in the boiler falling (less heat in the system - hydraulic contraction)
given that the red light is on and there is no alarm sounding it is clear that it is not the result of the low water alarm being activated (which will turn off the heating element (no red light) and the system will of course begin to cool as a result)
so the system has given an instruction to turn the heating element on, but it isnt heating for some reason
the first thing to check in this situation is the thermal fuse mounted on the brass rod into the end of the heating element
i have attached an image of the thermal fuse to this post so you know what you are looking for
unplug the machine from the power supply at the wall
with your finger push the very fine plastic reset pin on the very end of the thermal fuse
if when you do this the pin feels sprung loaded and moves into the thermal fuse house keep pushing gently until you feel it click into place - this resets the thermal fuse; reconnect the machine to the electrical supply and you should be back in action
if when you try to depress the reset pin with your finger it doesnt move and merely sticks into the end of your finger stop pushing; the thermal fuse has not tripped and therefore it can not be reset and we need to find another cause
let me know
reiss.
The pin doesn't depress, I believe indicating that the thermal fuse has not tripped.
Mark
ok
i take from your video clips posted above that you are saying that you have electrical continuity across the element, i.e. there is electrical current flowing through the element, correct?
its a bit of a long shot but i am wondering if there is an obstruction in the pipe that is supplying the pressure gauge
when the gauge reads zero can you please verify that this is in fact the case by opening the steam wand; does a jet of steam come out as normal?
depressing the central pin (not with your finger, but a pencil or similar) in the anti-vac valve would also confirm whether there was pressure in the boiler if it releases a jet of steam
as would opening the hot water tap (if there is no pressure in the boiler no water will come out)
kind regards
reiss.
Thanks for your help debugging this.
When I measure across the pins that I believe supply the heating elements, I'm measuring nearly line voltage (about 112VAC for North America) so there is voltage. I have not tried to measure the current going in. The resistance across the leads measures 6.8K ohms. I measured this without removing the leads as the clips seem firmly attached and I wasn't sure if I just needed to pull harder. I didn't want to break it if there is a retaining latch or clip that needs to be removed. Given that this should be a 1500W (or so) boiler, I expect it to pull 12.5A and if I work backwards, I would expect something below 10 ohms for the resistance.
I am not sure that there is an obstruction in the line that goes to the pressure meter since when it shows pressure, I have steam and output from the hot water and when it goes to zero, I do not.
Mark
when you say:
"I have steam and output from the hot water and when it goes to zero, I do not."
does this mean you are some how able to get the boiler to get pressure back on the gauge? eg by turning the machine off and back on again?
im asking because if the element is faulty i wouldn't expect it to come back to life - i would expect it to fail and remain in that state
reiss.
let me know
best
reiss.
I apologize for not being more clear. When I first reported the problem, the machine was dead no matter how many times I turned it off and then on again. I waited two days and on a lark, tried again. Much to my surprise, it did work - for a little while. During the time that it started working again, the boiler pressure did rise to the expected 1 bar level and I had water, steam, and could make espresso.
Shortly after my joy (maybe an hour or two), I heard the pump running when it shouldn't have been running, noticed that the gauge now read 0.5 bar and it continued to drop. When it went to zero that time (and when I first reported it as being broken), there is no steam or water.
I turned it on this morning and left it for a bit and it continues to read zero.
I too expect it to fail and remain in a failed state - that is what was so puzzling when it worked after 2 days. The only thing that may have happened is that it has been cool at night and the interior metal pieces were reading about 10C.
Mark
I gently pulled off the contacts on the heating elements and the impedance between them is infinite (open circuit). Between the right most terminal, the one to which the lavender wire attaches, and the boiler surface reads 2.9 ohms. The left one that has the orange lead is an open circuit between the terminal and the boiler surface. When I say boiler surface, I'm putting the other contact for the measurement on the boiler surface just outside where the heating element screws in.
So unfortunately, it does seem to be a bad heating element. Is that a user replaceable item?
Mark
ok, so assuming all the wires from the heating element terminals to the thermal fuse are secure the heating element has gone
you've been unlucky - only 5-10 machines since we started selling in 2012 have cooked an element
you will need the 120V element; https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/120v-1400w-immersion-element-for-the-londinium-r
you will need a 38mm socket; https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/38mm-deep-socket
you will need an element gasket; https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/element-gasket
a little sheen of silicone grease on the gasket can make it easier to remove the gasket out of the mounting recess if the need ever arises in the future - they can get stuck in there and tend to need digging out
kind regards
reiss
Thanks for letting me know. I'll order the element and gasket and I think I have or my brother-in-law has the 38mm deep socket. Will any 38mm deep socket work? Also, I ordered the electronic pressure regulator so is it possible to include the dongle with my order when it ships? I cannot figure out how to add a note to the order.
Thanks again,
Mark
One other thing, where will I find instructions on how to empty the water out of the machine before replacing the heating element?
It also looks like I need to remove the main power cord in order to get the heating element out without disturbing everything else.
I have placed the order and did see where I could add a note about the wireless module for the pre-infusion kit. I included my order number for that kit just for your reference.
Thanks,
Mark
Also, to make sure I do the repair properly, I notice that with mine, the fuse that you mentioned is centered on the heating element. I don't see that on the unit that I bought from the website. I think this is visible in the videos but to be clear, I'm including a photo that I just took.
Mark
I would like to add a 35um screen to my order but it is now complete. Is it possible to do that and have it ship with the other items?
Mark
yes, any 38mm socket will work - we offer them for sale only because some customers find them difficult to obtain
there is a how to in the permanent file; https://londiniumespresso.com/forum/permanent-file/715-changing-the-immersion-element
im not taking or making notes on the wireless dongle as it will be a circus to manage - we will dribble them out mid january when the first batch arrives
kind regards
reiss
the thermal fuse is sold separately to the element
you should be able to unscrew the thermal fuse from the element you have and screw it into the new element
i suggest you try and remove it now before you place a new order, that way if it breaks when you are trying to remove it you can order a new one
kind regards
reiss.
Very clear instructions - thank you. It is also nice to see that I don't have to move (or remove) the power cord in order to get the boiler element out.
Mark
Thanks again,
Mark
I have access to a torque wrench and am wondering if that is what they use on the manufacturing floor. The current instructions suggest tapping but if the range of the torque wrench works and that is how they do it at the factory, may I know the correct torque to apply when tightening?
Thanks,
Mark
a torque wrench is no good for this application
you need a small breaker bar that fits into your 38mm socket so you can strike the breaker bar with the hammer to create percussion shock
kind regards
reiss.
Got it - thank you.
The shipment was delayed (no fault of yours) and should arrive tomorrow. How do I best drain the boiler since the standard way that I've seen requires the boiler to be working in order to get steam and water out the spouts?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
place the machine on the stainless steel drain tray of your kitchen sink, assuming you have one, so all the water drains from the boiler through the holes in the chassis, onto the drain tray, and runs down into your kitchen sink and away
on the opposite end of the boiler to that in which the heating element is mounted you will find a number of fittings mounted, one for the hot water take off (assuming you have the hot water on the left) and helpfully a blanking cap from the legacy L1(2012-16) where the open thermosiphon feed drew water from the boiler:
i recommend you undo the blanking cap as it presents the least risk (no chance of damaging a pipe) and it is also mounted lower on the end plate so more water will drain out, and with this removed the water will run out of the boiler
when no more water comes out lean the machine over on its side so the remainder of the water in the boiler runs out - you dont need to drain every last drop to change the heating element in any case - just down below the level at which it mounts into the end plate of the boiler
kind regards
reiss.
I was able to drain the boiler and get the heating element out of the machine using the method you described. While it is a little disconcerting to be hammering on a spanner or breaker bar, it works as you say.
DHL has been a big disappointment. You shipped it to arrive on Thursday. On Thursday, they said it would be delivered today (Friday) and now, they say it won't arrive until Monday. I don't know if you can get any refund on shipping but DHL has flubbed this.
I took the time to install the digital pre-infusion system. One thing I note: I don't have the one small piece that you show in your video. You called it the brass olive. I ordered the digital pre-infusion when they first became available in September. I did get it all installed and assembled and am waiting for the heating element to test out the system. I normally wouldn't make two changes at the same time but installing the digital pre-infusion requires removing the panels and since I had to do that for the heating element repair, I decided to do both.
I'm guessing you changed the fitting to include the brass olive to make a better seal but am hoping that it all works just fine the way it came. I'll let you know how it goes.
Mark
yes, whilst i appreciate the frustration of waiting for a part to arrive when a machine is down im not sure that DHL have been too bad given its peak season and delays tend to occur at multiple points in the supply chain and we are sending it from England to California
you placed your order on 2 Dec, but our packer didn't have the order ready for me to book out on DHL until 4 Dec, purely due to the volume of seasonal orders she has to process, so there is two days lost right there
once DHL were given the parcel it progressed as follows:
the 'On hold' status indicate when DHL have just run out of capacity in their network to move your parcel to the next stage, eg their plane or truck is full
anyway, on to your point about the digital pre-infusion kit; frans' video shows the very first version of the kit, whereas shortly after it was changed to use a larger diameter copper pipe and no olive so it couldn't get lost. so rest assured you have a more evolved version of the kit than what is shown in the video
kind regards
reiss.
Attached files
TrackShipments_2019-12-06.pdf (66.5 KB)