the tiny brass bit i need to mount the pressure transducer onto the manifold pipe arrived this morning
i have now fitted it and tested with my portafilter gauge
as you may be able to see in the image below the offset i already had of -1.0 bar seems to still give the correct answer at the puck even after i have moved the pressure transducer back to the manifold
on that basis i would say that -1.0 is still the correct offset
the gremlin that can affect these readings is air in the portafilter gauge, but that would give me a low reading not a high one so i am very comfortable that i have a very accurate reading on the very first attempt after flushing the portafilter at setup
apologies for the blue underpants; the fact that it is warm here today is my only defence im afraid
Thank you, Reiss. So, just to see if I am interpreting what I am seeing correctly, the gauge with the air bubble appears to read slightly more than 8, especially when accounting for parallax, which compares nicely with the Bar reading of the module, which is 8.1. And all this with the -1.0 Offset setting. Do I have it about right?
yes, im even more confident now as i have just been to my father's and installed the same change on his machine and once again his offset value of -1.0 bar gives alignment between the observed pressure at the transducer (which is displayed net of the offset value) and the pressure at the portafilter on the mechanical gauge
This afternoon I succesfully replaced the leaking mater pressure switch with the new pre-infusion module. With clear directions via chat from Reiss (I have a model without the blue relais) I encountered no problems during the "operation". My LR is running happily again!
Getting the cap off the manifold port was quite scary. The spanner+hammer method does work, but it's still frightning to apply such violence :ohmy:
I made some photos of the process, so if somebody has any need for a specific detail, I might be able to provide a picture to clarify.
I have an older L1 (2016) that I use daily to make 2:1 espresso (14grams coffee makes two 14 gram shots) and find myself favoring the darker roasts. It makes a good cup and we're mostly happy. My wife's family is from Naples Italy and the beans they bring from their barrista are considerably lighter and actually harder (tougher to grind) than what I've been using.
And the shot from those lighter beans is just plain flat and tasteless. They are polite and say it's fine but, really it's not. From what I've read, I need a higher pre-infusion pressure to work with the lighter roasts.
Is this kit the thing I'm looking for to make my L1 work with the lighter roasts?
Hello David, The digital PI kit is only designed to work on the LR I'm afraid. Nonetheless, the older Londinium 1 is very capable of pulling wonderful shots with lighter roasts.
Here are a few questions that may help understand why you're pulling bland tasting shots: What grinder you're using? Are the beans within 14-21 days max after roast date? Did the beans travel by plane in the luggage compartment or on board in a carry on? Are you dosing 14 grams as well with the lighter roasts? Are you using the londinium double basket? What's your shot routine? Pstat setting? PI time, extraction time? Etc.
Pretty positive we'll have you pulling tasty, fruity and juicy light roasts in no time!
The module only allows for quick changes to the preinfusion pressure and gives a wider range of adjustability. Not many tank fed machines allow this (the Bianca and DE1 come to mind but they do it through a different process).
Reiss would explain everything better but the LR design was only possible after a small enough rotative pump hit the market. Tank fed, it can only preinfuse at a pressure up to 3-4 bar but making changes requires to remove the top panel and adjust the CEME pstat.
The L1 preinfuses at boiler pressure (1-1.3 bar).
Most residential machines don't even have preinfusion. Most coffee shops don't make adjustments to their preinfusion pressure.
So in short. Can the L1 pull light roasts? Yes. Can the LR pull better light roast shots? Yes but not to the point where the L1 becomes obsolete. Can a LR equipped with the new module pull even better shots? Yes but not to the point where the LR without the module becomes obsolete.
Unless you are drinking mostly nordic roasts, you should be able to pull tasty light roast espressos with your L1, no doubt.
Maybe start a new topic on the subject? You can also send me a private message and I'd be happy to help.
Alright then! Here's what I do on my L1 in order to find the sweet spot fo any light roasts. Important to mention I'm single dosing with a Niche Zero, using the Londinium IMS 18-20 basket and the Londinium distribution tool . Lighter roasts (at least to my eyes and palate) I have successfully pulled lately (at least to my eyes and palate): Gatomboya AA from Structure and from De Mello Palheta, La Benedicion (Nicaragua honey pacamara) and Pillcocaja (Ecuador washed).
1. I usually start with 18g dose and aim for a 1:2 ratio in +/- 25s (starting from full lever release)
2. If I find the notes are to subtle and the coffee is a little blend, I usually go up to 20g and taste. Following the diagram below, still too blend I'll up the dose by 1g or 2g. If too aggressive I'll go down to 19 on the next shot.
3. Profiling wise, I usually do a very short (5ish seconds) PI at boiler pressure with the lever all the way down, then gently release the lever till catch point where I will hold it until coffee beads fully cover the bottom of the basket and I have a few good drops of coffee in my cup (10-15 sec). This allows higher preinfusion pressure (around 3 bar I have read). When I release the lever, I start my shot clock.
I have yet to try uber light, almost green, roasts but I'm very happy with the shots I'm getting thus far.
Is your 'What's that; playing on the wireless?' news post in regard to a potential wireless App for the Digital Pre-infusion module for L-R? Can you elaborate a little more? Thank you.
(I am currently fine with Frans' suggested work-around for quick removal of the side panel. Just curious.)
yes, long overdue, but the Nestle project has now completed development so i have access to some development resource again so the App is moving forward
the challenge isnt writing the App it is about who hosts it and uptime and resilience as its not the kind of thing that can be falling over all the time; it needs to be 'always up'
we have hooked it up and have a working prototype - i would expect to release it into the wild mid august
I wanted to check how one can regulate Mater switch. I think I have it factory set and wanted to adjust for light roast to check if I see improvements, before going for digital one.
Not sure how much turns translate to pressure change and anybody has recommendation for good setting to compare?
The little pressostats do not all behave exactly the same, so it's maybe a good idea to do one of two things:
1) get a portafilter with pressure gauge (and a tap to let the water flow out) so you are sure what pressure you get
or
2) increase the setting 1/4 turn, wait, then make an espresso, taste, see if you taste the difference. Then do it again, until you like the result.
Keep in mind that an older pressostat could develop a certain stiffness, so it might not make much difference the first few adjustments and then suddenly make a big difference.
It might be a good idea to keep a spare p-stat ready, in case you want to replace the older one and start over.
apologies for not chipping in sooner - i saw frans' reply in the middle of the night, couldn't add anything to it, and then promptly forgot all about it when i woke up this morning.
one thing is certain, the pressure transducer takes the LR to a whole new level, both in terms of being able to shift the machine from pulling a light roast to a dark roast in an instant with precision and no tools. it also takes the reliability to a new level; we have not had any issues with the pressure transducer
do not think that we have in any way taken the machine away from being a traditional HX/TS lever machine
all the rotary pump and digital pre-infusion are doing is miniaturising what a mains water supply, pressure reducing valve (regulating valve) and mechanical gauge perform on our commercial L1/2/3 machines so we can fit it all inside the casing and retain the wonderful convenience that a plug and play tank fed machine offers in a non commercial environment
Thanks for answers. Still one thing I wanted to check about Ceme vs mater sensitivity for adjustment. Are both the same: let's say 1/4 turn change it by 1 bar or different. Or Come is more / less sensitive to adjustments?
they are factory set, to 3.5 bar in the case of the Mater (giving 2.5 bar at the puck) and a small initial adjustment will have a significant effect
as you move further away from the factory setting more movement is required to achieve the same movement in pressure; i.e. the adjustment becomes less sensitive as you get further away from the factory setting
Just seeing the recent announcement of the need for the wireless (communication) module to be plugged into the digital preinfusion module's serial port in order for the app to work. I thought the wireless capability was already part of the digital preinfusion module without the need for additional hardware? Regardless, how soon will we be able to order the wireless module?
Also, does the bar setting on the module reflect the pressure at the puck, more or less, or do we need to subtract some value? For example with the older pressure stats you would comment the mater would be set at 3.5 bar but represented 3 bar at the puck?
so did i, but i just have to take it on the chin and move on
i will be supplying the module free, along with access to the app which has involved a considerable outlay
all i ask is that you place an order, however small, and request in the notes field of the order that you need me to send you the wireless module and i will take steps to ensure that it is included with your order
in other words i am only asking you to pay for the delivery of the wireless module
as things stand we are well placed to have the first batch of wireless modules ready this month
they plug straight into the serial port that you can see on the bottom of your pressure transducer module
the bar setting on the pressure transducer does indeed reflect the pressure at the puck, assuming you have the offset value set to -1.0 bar
the Mater pressure switch set at 3.5 bar would produce 2.5 bar at the puck
its going to be an exciting august - never in my wildest dreams did i expect it to take this long to bring the app controller to you
Will place an order and include the note. No problem.
Also thanks for the clarification about the digital module settings reflecting pressure at the puck. That's what I thought (judging from your coffee extraction notes, for example) but just wanted to be sure. Yes, I use the recommended -1.0 bar offset.
My L-R is on my way to me currently. Just wondering if units shipped recently already have the wireless module with them or if I'll need to request one as well at a later date when they're available. I didn't dig this far into the module until this weekend when I saw the news section and then this thread.
Last week I installed the Pre-Infusion module and I enjoyed it so fa, as I'm having a new machine.
In the mean while, I sent Mr. Reiss an email about a simple device that I developed to initiate a Pre-Infusion timer when lever is pulled down. I attached a video demonstrating the device in action.
A microcontroller with a current sensor - the blue sensor - is clipped around the pump's orange wire coming from the Pre-Infusion module. Using a WiFi enabled microcontroller - Particle Photon - connected to cloud solution Blynk, I can monitor the current changes and set the timer from the iOS/Android app. I can tell, with long pre-infustion, the device helped me a lot and put aside any manual timer that sometimes I forget to start it.
Now, my suggestion to have such capability integrated in the Pre-Infusion module , if applicable. The pressure transducer can do both job, running the pump and initiating the timer; no current sensor is needed. Only a buzzer is required to alert user of the pre-infusion timeout.
Another suggestion is to have a setting for pump kick-in delay. That way we can have 2 stages pre-infusion, 1- 1.2bar boiler pressure 2- followed by the pump preset pressure; i.e. 5 sec 1.2bar pre-infusion, then 10 sec pump preset pressure pre-infusion. Something similar to Synesso Hydra's 4 stages brewing method.
Just wanted to check in to see if we're able to get the wireless module yet for our L-Rs. I've been switching back and forth between very light roasts and more traditional roasts since my GF likes those more. While its not difficult to change the pre-infusion pressure, it would be very convenient not to pop off the side panel each time I want to swap.
Comments
the tiny brass bit i need to mount the pressure transducer onto the manifold pipe arrived this morning
i have now fitted it and tested with my portafilter gauge
as you may be able to see in the image below the offset i already had of -1.0 bar seems to still give the correct answer at the puck even after i have moved the pressure transducer back to the manifold
on that basis i would say that -1.0 is still the correct offset
the gremlin that can affect these readings is air in the portafilter gauge, but that would give me a low reading not a high one so i am very comfortable that i have a very accurate reading on the very first attempt after flushing the portafilter at setup
apologies for the blue underpants; the fact that it is warm here today is my only defence im afraid
kind regards
reiss.
yes, im even more confident now as i have just been to my father's and installed the same change on his machine and once again his offset value of -1.0 bar gives alignment between the observed pressure at the transducer (which is displayed net of the offset value) and the pressure at the portafilter on the mechanical gauge
kind regards
reiss.
I too will be changing the Offset from -1.4 to -1.0
Tony
With clear directions via chat from Reiss (I have a model without the blue relais) I encountered no problems during the "operation". My LR is running happily again!
Getting the cap off the manifold port was quite scary. The spanner+hammer method does work, but it's still frightning to
apply such violence :ohmy:
I made some photos of the process, so if somebody has any need for a specific detail, I might be able to provide a picture to clarify.
Tried longer too but saw no improvements...
Around 12-15secs here too using lighter roasts.
I have an older L1 (2016) that I use daily to make 2:1 espresso (14grams coffee makes two 14 gram shots) and find myself favoring the darker roasts. It makes a good cup and we're mostly happy.
My wife's family is from Naples Italy and the beans they bring from their barrista are considerably lighter and actually harder (tougher to grind) than what I've been using.
And the shot from those lighter beans is just plain flat and tasteless. They are polite and say it's fine but, really it's not.
From what I've read, I need a higher pre-infusion pressure to work with the lighter roasts.
Is this kit the thing I'm looking for to make my L1 work with the lighter roasts?
The digital PI kit is only designed to work on the LR I'm afraid.
Nonetheless, the older Londinium 1 is very capable of pulling wonderful shots with lighter roasts.
Here are a few questions that may help understand why you're pulling bland tasting shots:
What grinder you're using?
Are the beans within 14-21 days max after roast date?
Did the beans travel by plane in the luggage compartment or on board in a carry on?
Are you dosing 14 grams as well with the lighter roasts?
Are you using the londinium double basket?
What's your shot routine? Pstat setting? PI time, extraction time? Etc.
Pretty positive we'll have you pulling tasty, fruity and juicy light roasts in no time!
Cheers!
Jonathan
But if the old L1 can pull a shot just fine with lighter roasts, why make the L-R with pre-infusion pressure control in the first place?
Reiss would explain everything better but the LR design was only possible after a small enough rotative pump hit the market. Tank fed, it can only preinfuse at a pressure up to 3-4 bar but making changes requires to remove the top panel and adjust the CEME pstat.
The L1 preinfuses at boiler pressure (1-1.3 bar).
Most residential machines don't even have preinfusion. Most coffee shops don't make adjustments to their preinfusion pressure.
So in short. Can the L1 pull light roasts? Yes.
Can the LR pull better light roast shots? Yes but not to the point where the L1 becomes obsolete.
Can a LR equipped with the new module pull even better shots? Yes but not to the point where the LR without the module becomes obsolete.
Unless you are drinking mostly nordic roasts, you should be able to pull tasty light roast espressos with your L1, no doubt.
Maybe start a new topic on the subject? You can also send me a private message and I'd be happy to help.
Cheers!
Jonathan
kind regards
reiss.
Here's what I do on my L1 in order to find the sweet spot fo any light roasts.
Important to mention I'm single dosing with a Niche Zero, using the Londinium IMS 18-20 basket and the Londinium distribution tool .
Lighter roasts (at least to my eyes and palate) I have successfully pulled lately (at least to my eyes and palate): Gatomboya AA from Structure and from De Mello Palheta, La Benedicion (Nicaragua honey pacamara) and Pillcocaja (Ecuador washed).
1. I usually start with 18g dose and aim for a 1:2 ratio in +/- 25s (starting from full lever release)
2. If I find the notes are to subtle and the coffee is a little blend, I usually go up to 20g and taste. Following the diagram below, still too blend I'll up the dose by 1g or 2g. If too aggressive I'll go down to 19 on the next shot.
3. Profiling wise, I usually do a very short (5ish seconds) PI at boiler pressure with the lever all the way down, then gently release the lever till catch point where I will hold it until coffee beads fully cover the bottom of the basket and I have a few good drops of coffee in my cup (10-15 sec). This allows higher preinfusion pressure (around 3 bar I have read). When I release the lever, I start my shot clock.
I have yet to try uber light, almost green, roasts but I'm very happy with the shots I'm getting thus far.
Jonathan
Attached files
presentazione-DRM-2013-ing-ita.pdf (558 KB)Is your 'What's that; playing on the wireless?' news post in regard to a potential wireless App for the Digital Pre-infusion module for L-R? Can you elaborate a little more? Thank you.
(I am currently fine with Frans' suggested work-around for quick removal of the side panel. Just curious.)
yes, long overdue, but the Nestle project has now completed development so i have access to some development resource again so the App is moving forward
the challenge isnt writing the App it is about who hosts it and uptime and resilience as its not the kind of thing that can be falling over all the time; it needs to be 'always up'
we have hooked it up and have a working prototype - i would expect to release it into the wild mid august
kind regards
reiss.
I think I have it factory set and wanted to adjust for light roast to check if I see improvements, before going for digital one.
Not sure how much turns translate to pressure change and anybody has recommendation for good setting to compare?
1) get a portafilter with pressure gauge (and a tap to let the water flow out) so you are sure what pressure you get
or
2) increase the setting 1/4 turn, wait, then make an espresso, taste, see if you taste the difference. Then do it again, until you like the result.
Keep in mind that an older pressostat could develop a certain stiffness, so it might not make much difference the first few adjustments and then suddenly make a big difference.
It might be a good idea to keep a spare p-stat ready, in case you want to replace the older one and start over.
one thing is certain, the pressure transducer takes the LR to a whole new level, both in terms of being able to shift the machine from pulling a light roast to a dark roast in an instant with precision and no tools. it also takes the reliability to a new level; we have not had any issues with the pressure transducer
do not think that we have in any way taken the machine away from being a traditional HX/TS lever machine
all the rotary pump and digital pre-infusion are doing is miniaturising what a mains water supply, pressure reducing valve (regulating valve) and mechanical gauge perform on our commercial L1/2/3 machines so we can fit it all inside the casing and retain the wonderful convenience that a plug and play tank fed machine offers in a non commercial environment
kind regards
reiss.
Still one thing I wanted to check about Ceme vs mater sensitivity for adjustment. Are both the same: let's say 1/4 turn change it by 1 bar or different.
Or Come is more / less sensitive to adjustments?
neither are linear in their adjustment
they are factory set, to 3.5 bar in the case of the Mater (giving 2.5 bar at the puck) and a small initial adjustment will have a significant effect
as you move further away from the factory setting more movement is required to achieve the same movement in pressure; i.e. the adjustment becomes less sensitive as you get further away from the factory setting
kind regards
reiss.
Just seeing the recent announcement of the need for the wireless (communication) module to be plugged into the digital preinfusion module's serial port in order for the app to work. I thought the wireless capability was already part of the digital preinfusion module without the need for additional hardware? Regardless, how soon will we be able to order the wireless module?
Also, does the bar setting on the module reflect the pressure at the puck, more or less, or do we need to subtract some value? For example with the older pressure stats you would comment the mater would be set at 3.5 bar but represented 3 bar at the puck?
This is good news and looking forward to it.
Thanks.
Carl
so did i, but i just have to take it on the chin and move on
i will be supplying the module free, along with access to the app which has involved a considerable outlay
all i ask is that you place an order, however small, and request in the notes field of the order that you need me to send you the wireless module and i will take steps to ensure that it is included with your order
in other words i am only asking you to pay for the delivery of the wireless module
as things stand we are well placed to have the first batch of wireless modules ready this month
they plug straight into the serial port that you can see on the bottom of your pressure transducer module
the bar setting on the pressure transducer does indeed reflect the pressure at the puck, assuming you have the offset value set to -1.0 bar
the Mater pressure switch set at 3.5 bar would produce 2.5 bar at the puck
its going to be an exciting august - never in my wildest dreams did i expect it to take this long to bring the app controller to you
kind regards
reiss
Will place an order and include the note. No problem.
Also thanks for the clarification about the digital module settings reflecting pressure at the puck. That's what I thought (judging from your coffee extraction notes, for example) but just wanted to be sure. Yes, I use the recommended -1.0 bar offset.
Thank you.
Carl
My L-R is on my way to me currently. Just wondering if units shipped recently already have the wireless module with them or if I'll need to request one as well at a later date when they're available. I didn't dig this far into the module until this weekend when I saw the news section and then this thread.
Best,
Andy
the LR does not yet have the wireless module in it
the wireless modules are currently in production and we expect their delivery early next month
kind regards
reiss.
Last week I installed the Pre-Infusion module and I enjoyed it so fa, as I'm having a new machine.
In the mean while, I sent Mr. Reiss an email about a simple device that I developed to initiate a Pre-Infusion timer when lever is pulled down. I attached a video demonstrating the device in action.
A microcontroller with a current sensor - the blue sensor - is clipped around the pump's orange wire coming from the Pre-Infusion module. Using a WiFi enabled microcontroller - Particle Photon - connected to cloud solution Blynk, I can monitor the current changes and set the timer from the iOS/Android app. I can tell, with long pre-infustion, the device helped me a lot and put aside any manual timer that sometimes I forget to start it.
Pre-Infusion Timer Video
Now, my suggestion to have such capability integrated in the Pre-Infusion module , if applicable. The pressure transducer can do both job, running the pump and initiating the timer; no current sensor is needed. Only a buzzer is required to alert user of the pre-infusion timeout.
Another suggestion is to have a setting for pump kick-in delay. That way we can have 2 stages pre-infusion, 1- 1.2bar boiler pressure 2- followed by the pump preset pressure; i.e. 5 sec 1.2bar pre-infusion, then 10 sec pump preset pressure pre-infusion. Something similar to Synesso Hydra's 4 stages brewing method.
thank you for posting this
i think many owners will find it interesting
i am pleased that it feels like you have a whole new machine after adding the digital pre-infusion module, as i share your view
kind regards
reiss.
Just wanted to check in to see if we're able to get the wireless module yet for our L-Rs. I've been switching back and forth between very light roasts and more traditional roasts since my GF likes those more. While its not difficult to change the pre-infusion pressure, it would be very convenient not to pop off the side panel each time I want to swap.
Best,
Andy