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L1 Boiler Refill Issue
Hi Reiss,
The L1 arrived today and has been set up as instructed in the manual.
Initial fill up to halfway point with the manual by pass valve in the vertical position, followed by closing the valve and switching on the machine to allow it to fill up with the blue light on.
The issue is that the machine will not maintain its water level during use and will slowly empty out the tank, even with the blue light on continuously.
We tried switching the machine off, releasing all pressure with the steam wand and switching it back on. That seems to cause the boiler to refill, but again we have a reduction in water level as we draw hot water, pull shots etc.
Needless to say, constantly switching off the machine and bleeding the pressure with the steam wand is not a long term solution in a Cafe!
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
The L1 arrived today and has been set up as instructed in the manual.
Initial fill up to halfway point with the manual by pass valve in the vertical position, followed by closing the valve and switching on the machine to allow it to fill up with the blue light on.
The issue is that the machine will not maintain its water level during use and will slowly empty out the tank, even with the blue light on continuously.
We tried switching the machine off, releasing all pressure with the steam wand and switching it back on. That seems to cause the boiler to refill, but again we have a reduction in water level as we draw hot water, pull shots etc.
Needless to say, constantly switching off the machine and bleeding the pressure with the steam wand is not a long term solution in a Cafe!
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Comments
thanks for posting. would it be possible for you to post a photo of the set up, or to describe the set in more detail as you refer to a 'tank' draining
my expectation for the L1/2/3 would be a connection to the mains water supply
whilst they can be run from tanks it adds an extra layer of detail that i need to understand in order to solve the issue for you
at the moment i cant quite see in my mind how you have it set up
you say the water is continuing to drain out of the tank, but it has to be going somewhere
either the boiler must be over-filling and flooding out the top of the anti-vac valve or you are able to direct me to water leaking out of the machine at some other point
with a little bit more information i am very confident we will get it resolved for you
the manual fill valve is closed when it is in the horizontal position
you need to check that even though you have removed the red tag from the anti-vac valve that it has then fallen down into the 'open' position; with machines that have been air freighted the changed in altitude means that sometimes you will remove the anti-vac valve and yet the valve will stay pushed up in the 'closed' position. if this has occurred open the steam valve and observe the valve fall into the open position
next you need to vent air from other areas of the system, in particular pull the lever group down repeatedly until you get a full 'dump' of water - note that the water delivery on the L1/2/3 is different from the L1(2012-2016), so on the L1 if you pull the lever down it will 'dump' a volume of water and then the group will be dry and you will have to let the lever back up to its resting position for it to refill
finally, when the system is hot and pressurised run the hot water tap until the system is free of air and delivering constant hot water at boiler pressure
in summary, if the boiler isnt flooding and you dont have evidence of a leak, i am guessing that there is just some air in the system, but this is only a guess until i receive additional information
it is possible i suppose that the inlet solenoid valve isnt fully sealing and holding back the pressure from the 'tank?', but it would be the first machine ever to do that straight from the factory and also it would result in the boiler flooding at some point
dont worry, it is a very simple machine and you dont report any leaks so i very much doubt you have a serious problem that we cant solve immediately
please also check that the maximum pressure that the pressure gauge is indicating just after the red light turns off is 1.0 bar. if it is going above this (and it might because we used to set them at 1.3 bar at the factory) please turn it down to max out at 1.0 bar. please FaceTime or Skype me if you would like me to step you through this for the first time
kind regards
reiss.
thanks for posting. would it be possible for you to post a photo of the set up, or to describe the set in more detail as you refer to a 'tank' draining
my expectation for the L1/2/3 would be a connection to the mains water supply
whilst they can be run from tanks it adds an extra layer of detail that i need to understand in order to solve the issue for you
at the moment i cant quite see in my mind how you have it set up
you say the water is continuing to drain out of the tank, but it has to be going somewhere
either the boiler must be over-filling and flooding out the top of the anti-vac valve or you are able to direct me to water leaking out of the machine at some other point
with a little bit more information i am very confident we will get it resolved for you
the manual fill valve is closed when it is in the horizontal position
you need to check that even though you have removed the red tag from the anti-vac valve that it has then fallen down into the 'open' position; with machines that have been air freighted the changed in altitude means that sometimes you will remove the anti-vac valve and yet the valve will stay pushed up in the 'closed' position. if this has occurred open the steam valve and observe the valve fall into the open position
next you need to vent air from other areas of the system, in particular pull the lever group down repeatedly until you get a full 'dump' of water - note that the water delivery on the L1/2/3 is different from the L1(2012-2016), so on the L1 if you pull the lever down it will 'dump' a volume of water and then the group will be dry and you will have to let the lever back up to its resting position for it to refill
finally, when the system is hot and pressurised run the hot water tap until the system is free of air and delivering constant hot water at boiler pressure
in summary, if the boiler isnt flooding and you dont have evidence of a leak, i am guessing that there is just some air in the system, but this is only a guess until i receive additional information
it is possible i suppose that the inlet solenoid valve isnt fully sealing and holding back the pressure from the 'tank?', but it would be the first machine ever to do that straight from the factory and also it would result in the boiler flooding at some point
dont worry, it is a very simple machine and you dont report any leaks so i very much doubt you have a serious problem that we cant solve immediately
please also check that the maximum pressure that the pressure gauge is indicating just after the red light turns off is 1.0 bar. if it is going above this (and it might because we used to set them at 1.3 bar at the factory) please turn it down to max out at 1.0 bar. please FaceTime or Skype me if you would like me to step you through this for the first time
kind regards
reiss.
ive been thinking about this, and without wishing to trivialise matters, i thought it was worth pointing out one detail
unlike the L1(2012-2016), the L1/2/3 & LR all have a manifold that splits the incoming water supply into two streams; one to feed the boiler (which is regulated by the inlet solenoid and the fill probe) and a second stream that is unregulated and uses the water pressure in your 'tank' to reload the heat exchanger(s) with brew water
so on your L1 every time you pull the lever the water level in your water tank will fall, as it needs to refill the now empty heat exchanger with brew water, even though the boiler does not refill and the blue light will not illuminate
does this resolve it, or are you saying that the water level in your water tank is falling even when the machine is completely left alone? (in which case there must be evidence of a water leak somewhere)
kind regards
reiss.
ive been thinking about this, and without wishing to trivialise matters, i thought it was worth pointing out one detail
unlike the L1(2012-2016), the L1/2/3 & LR all have a manifold that splits the incoming water supply into two streams; one to feed the boiler (which is regulated by the inlet solenoid and the fill probe) and a second stream that is unregulated and uses the water pressure in your 'tank' to reload the heat exchanger(s) with brew water
so on your L1 every time you pull the lever the water level in your water tank will fall, as it needs to refill the now empty heat exchanger with brew water, even though the boiler does not refill and the blue light will not illuminate
does this resolve it, or are you saying that the water level in your water tank is falling even when the machine is completely left alone? (in which case there must be evidence of a water leak somewhere)
kind regards
reiss.
Thank you for your prompt and detailed reply.
I should have explained better than I did, I meant boiler when I mentioned "tank" and I am fairly positive there are no leaks.
The L1 is connected to the mains water supply, however as we draw hot water through the hot water spout the boiler does not refill, even though the blue light indicates that it should be doing so.
I will attempt to vent the system, I'm hoping the solution is as simple as that. I will get back to you with full setup photos if the issue is not resolved by any of your solutions.
As this is my second Londinium I am confident of the efficient simplicity & the build quality!
Thank you for your prompt and detailed reply.
I should have explained better than I did, I meant boiler when I mentioned "tank" and I am fairly positive there are no leaks.
The L1 is connected to the mains water supply, however as we draw hot water through the hot water spout the boiler does not refill, even though the blue light indicates that it should be doing so.
I will attempt to vent the system, I'm hoping the solution is as simple as that. I will get back to you with full setup photos if the issue is not resolved by any of your solutions.
As this is my second Londinium I am confident of the efficient simplicity & the build quality!
I opened up the top panel the after switching the L1 on and the anti vac valve was down in the "open" position.
once the pressure in the system built up it raised up to the "closed" position - is this normal?
releasing steam after the red light went off did not drop the anti vac valve back down again.
I pulled the lever down to the lowest position and water continuously flows through it. I tried again at 90 degrees (I was holding the lever) and water flowed freely.
I did this a few times then decided to run the hot water tap and observe the pressure gauge, the boiler maintained pressure until the water level reached the lowest marking on the water level indicator (I assume that is the minimum recommended water level?) As you can see on the pressure gauge the pressure is at 1.3Bar. please note that this was after the red light was off for a while, I will have to switch the machine off and on again to observe pressure level at the moment the red light switched off.
its been around 30 minutes and the boiler water level has not increased. I will attempt to attach a few images to this post to help with the diagnosis.
Regards,
Attached files
I opened up the top panel the after switching the L1 on and the anti vac valve was down in the "open" position.
once the pressure in the system built up it raised up to the "closed" position - is this normal?
releasing steam after the red light went off did not drop the anti vac valve back down again.
I pulled the lever down to the lowest position and water continuously flows through it. I tried again at 90 degrees (I was holding the lever) and water flowed freely.
I did this a few times then decided to run the hot water tap and observe the pressure gauge, the boiler maintained pressure until the water level reached the lowest marking on the water level indicator (I assume that is the minimum recommended water level?) As you can see on the pressure gauge the pressure is at 1.3Bar. please note that this was after the red light was off for a while, I will have to switch the machine off and on again to observe pressure level at the moment the red light switched off.
its been around 30 minutes and the boiler water level has not increased. I will attempt to attach a few images to this post to help with the diagnosis.
Regards,
Attached files
OK, so the boiler is not refilling
You report that the blue light is coming on which indicates that the Gicar is sending a signal to the inlet solenoid to open and close, so this suggests that the inlet solenoid is not opening (disconnected wire/s?), or is opening with an obstruction in/at/before the solenoid
Please check that as the blue light comes on you can hear the little click of the inlet solenoid and as the blue light goes off you can hear the solenoid click closed again
If there is no audible click of the solenoid opening and closing as the blue light turns on and off please check that none of the wires to the inlet solenoid have come off, or are loose
Next, please confirm that if you open the manual fill valve on the machine that the boiler refills. From what you have written i understand that it does and this indicates that the water line supplying the machine is supplying water, i.e. that the isolating valve on the water line feeding the machine is open
Next check that the water pressure in the water line feeding the machine always has a minimum pressure of 1.5 bar. If it does not when the inlet solenoid opens the water trying to fill the boiler from the water line will not be able to enter the boiler as it will be held out by the greater pressure of the water in the boiler. Also check for fluctuations in the line pressure at different times of day/different days as this can also be an issue. I accept that if the boiler is filling when you open the manual fill valve that insufficient pressure in the water line does not explain the issue
Please let me know the outcome of the above tests; it is looking like an obstruction on the inlet side of the inlet solenoid, or within the solenoid, at this stage. There is a very detailed instructional video in the permanent file on how take take the inlet solenoid apart and check for debris in the valve and reassemble
Kind regards
Reiss.
OK, so the boiler is not refilling
You report that the blue light is coming on which indicates that the Gicar is sending a signal to the inlet solenoid to open and close, so this suggests that the inlet solenoid is not opening (disconnected wire/s?), or is opening with an obstruction in/at/before the solenoid
Please check that as the blue light comes on you can hear the little click of the inlet solenoid and as the blue light goes off you can hear the solenoid click closed again
If there is no audible click of the solenoid opening and closing as the blue light turns on and off please check that none of the wires to the inlet solenoid have come off, or are loose
Next, please confirm that if you open the manual fill valve on the machine that the boiler refills. From what you have written i understand that it does and this indicates that the water line supplying the machine is supplying water, i.e. that the isolating valve on the water line feeding the machine is open
Next check that the water pressure in the water line feeding the machine always has a minimum pressure of 1.5 bar. If it does not when the inlet solenoid opens the water trying to fill the boiler from the water line will not be able to enter the boiler as it will be held out by the greater pressure of the water in the boiler. Also check for fluctuations in the line pressure at different times of day/different days as this can also be an issue. I accept that if the boiler is filling when you open the manual fill valve that insufficient pressure in the water line does not explain the issue
Please let me know the outcome of the above tests; it is looking like an obstruction on the inlet side of the inlet solenoid, or within the solenoid, at this stage. There is a very detailed instructional video in the permanent file on how take take the inlet solenoid apart and check for debris in the valve and reassemble
Kind regards
Reiss.
i realise i havent answered some of the questions you raise in this post:
1. yes, the anti-vac valve should be in the down/resting/open position when there is no pressure in the boiler
2. yes, once you turn the machine on pressure builds in the boiler as the water heats and steam is driven off. when this pressure builds enough it lifts the anti-vac valve up and this causes the boiler to seal closed and then the pressure in the boiler can continue to build to its operating pressure, which is regulated by the Sirai pressure switch
3. that's correct, opening the steam wand should not cause the pressure in the boiler to collapse (unless you had a vacuum in the boiler somewhere)
4. the activity you report when you pull the lever down is also in line with my expectations
do let us know what you have discovered since your last post
kind regards
reiss
how are you getting on with it?
kind regards
reiss.
Apologies for my tardiness, I just got back in the country.
Thank you very much for your input.
We went through the various steps you mentioned and discovered that our line pressure was below 1.5 bar.
After scouring the market the smallest pump we could find was a 0.5hp pump that is complete overkill and raised the pressure way to high, so we introduced pressure reduction valve and set it up to 2bar of pressure and everything seems to be working perfectly fine now. Our initial setting of 1.5bar did not resolve the Re filling issue.
Again, thank you very much for your help, I hope this thread can benefit others down down the line.
Kind Regards,
Soud
perfect, thank you so much for the reply. i believe frans did something similar for his L1 too
kind regards
reiss.