Water Filter

mario Pavesi

Hi, I just placed an order for a LI and I have a question about water filters, would reverse osmosis remove too much of the mineral needed for proper operation and coffee taste? Would a water softener be better? Doesn't water softeners neutralizes the minerals too? A bit confused

Thanks
Mario

Frans Goddijn

[already answered below]

Reiss Gunson

hi mario

both methods give acceptable results in my view

the starting point is to determine the characteristics of your water; dont assume you need to soften - you may not

the starting point for this is to look at your kettle/electric jug, bathroom & hot water tap fittings around the house

if these show limescale deposits then you will need to softening your water before it enters your espresso machine

if there is no evidence of limescale deposits on your tap ware or electric kettle then you probably wont need to soften the water but you should still proceed to the next stage which would be to get a water test kit and measure your water to see if it contains high levels of anything that might detract from your coffee quality - if you are connected to a town water supply then there is a good chance that your council/municipal supplier will publish the composition of your water on their website

if your water ever has a chlorine smell (swimming pool smell) to it you know that you will want to pass your water through a carbon filter at a minimum. if you are on bore, tank, or other supply you will also want to take more precautions, including multi-stage filtration to remove sediment/sand and if you are unlucky heavy metals. if there is a risk of coliform contaminants then you will be looking at UV treatment too, but all these things arent really espresso machine specific issues in my view but more water quality issues

so jumping back to the central question of water softening, assuming that you have determined that it is necessary (above), then i recommend resin filter based softening where your water hardness is not too high, say less than 150ppm and reverse osmosis softening where the hardness is getting much above 150ppm, certainly by 200ppm i think i would be going the reverse osmosis route which requires a initial outlay but a reduced operating cost

in the permanent file a long time L1 owner has posted some time ago in detail how he set up his reverse osmosis system. obviously post treatment you want to add back in some calcium carbonate as the reverse osmosis process by definition strips everything from the water and if the TDS value is too low the auto fill mechanism on the boiler will cease to function reliably

i also strongly recommend the use of the leak detection alarm that you see in this thread in the permanent file - you have it sitting on the bench where the machine is and if water is detected on the bench it will shut off the water supply to the machine and an audible alarm will sound

unlike a tank fed machine there is the potential for a very serious flood when your espresso machine is connected to the water mains. at an absolute minimum it needs to be plumbed to the water supply with an isolating valve and this valve needs to be closed when the machine is unattended, i.e. if you leave the house or have a large house and move to another part of the house for the rest of the day

mario Pavesi

Thanks Frans and Reiss for the info wow! ok I have some homework to do, I do have a whole house filtration system and a no salt softener which does not remove anything actually it just changes something on the water and does not let the calcium sticky , but you still drinking tons of calcium and magnesium I did a test strip crude test if you ask me it did not show any hardiness just a very high alkalinity which is the same as hardiness I was told and also it does not remove heavy metals like an RO does. Thanks for the info regarding the precautions when hooking it up to the main lineI will make sure of that.

Thanks
Mario

mario Pavesi

Ok, long conversation with a water treatment company today, results are in a little over 7grain per gallon of water, so very hard water, so we removing the "water conditioner" to a ion exchanger but that will drop the calcium and magnesium to nothing, he suggested using a filter from BTW Bestmax which adds magnesium to the water does anyone has had any experience with this system?
another question do you know if an adaptor is included with LI machine coming from 3/4 BST to NPT? is the drain plug the same size tread?

Thanks
Mario

Reiss Gunson

hi mario

i believe Frans has a BWT BestMax, i would expect others will too - they are very highly regarded

my suggested is you buy the adaptor from Espressoparts.com to get you from 3/8"BSP to 3/8"US Compression fitting and then you can attach a readily available off the shelf in the USA braided stainless hose with 3/8" US compression fittings and life is good

reiss.

mario Pavesi

Thanks Reiss, all good getting everything ready

Thanks
Mario

Reiss Gunson

this is the part i am referring to - https://www.espressoparts.com/3-8-bsp-female-x-3-8-compression-male

note that we only have BSPP threads on our machines (none are BSPT)

reiss.

Frans Goddijn

mario pavesi post=13158 wrote: he suggested using a filter from BTW Bestmax which adds magnesium to the water does anyone has had any experience with this system?

http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.nl/2015/02/getting-bestmax-premium-water-filter.html

mario Pavesi

Thanks for all the help, I got my electrical done today, plumbing will be done on Monday, I can't figure out where to place the water leak shut off, it only comes with one sensor so really don't know where to place it. Decided to go with an ion exchanger for softener and BWT Bestmax MG2 filter and see how it goes. again lots of good information found here.

Thanks
Mario

Frans Goddijn

mario pavesi post=13171 wrote: I can't figure out where to place the water leak shut off, it only comes with one sensor so really don't know where to place it.

Same here. I discussed it with a friend who is good at such installations but we wondered where the leak would occur. In the kitchen cabinet where the filter is, in the back of the kitchen where the L1-P is installed, in the other side of the kitchen which is slightly lower so eventually water will end up there... I normally shut off the water supply to the L1-P when it's not on, and shut off the water supply to the filter when I'm away so that helps against unattended failures. We discussed installing a motion sensor that would automatically shut off the supply when nothing has been moving for 5 minutes but then again, any added gadget is a device that can potentially fail.

The L-R has just its water reservoir so there's not terribly much that could go wrong with it.

The BWT Bestmax M filter was up for renewal so I bought an S version which is only good for 500 litres. The volumetric flow meter connected will show when it's time to renew it. Refreshing the filter more than once a year could be a good idea that I'm trying out.

mario Pavesi

Hi Frans, any reason why you are changing filter from M to S is just a smaller filter doing the same thing? My plumber suggested installing a "house" leak detector shut off valve, but a bit complicated I like simple things ( less problems) I'm looking for a unit that has one shutoff valve and multiple sensor but the only one I can find uses wifi and we all know how reliable there is haha

Mario

Frans Goddijn

Yes it can be hard to decide on a refinement that does not complicate things at the same time ;-)

I think the different sizes BWT Bestmax filter do the same thing, just this small one has merely 500L capacity so I will be refreshing it way before the year is over. The M one had about 3000L capacity and after a year I was not anywhere near that so a smaller one would in the end drive up costs of course but I would get a fresh one more frequently which might be good.

I again did all the measurements of water unfiltered / filtered / old filter / new filter / new filter after being installed for a day and getting thoroughly soaked. So eventually I will look at all these numbers and maybe learn more ;-)

mario Pavesi

Thats a very good idea either that or replace the filter say at 2000L whichever is cheeper, it will interesting to see the summary of your testing, all for the quest of the perfect espresso so lets keep trying, I just can't wait to get my hands on my machine

Mario

Frans Goddijn

mario pavesi post=13175 wrote: it will interesting to see the summary of your testing

http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.nl/2015/02/getting-bestmax-premium-water-filter.html

mario Pavesi

Very nice work Frans, in my case I will be very curious to see because I'm starting at almost zero ppm because the water softener and then filtered with the Bestmax premium + MG2 filter. The idea of RO made by BWT sound pretty good I have not seen anything yet.

Mario

Jeroen de Meijer

I've installed a Waterlock directly to the tap before the water filter. It is a relatively cheap mechanical device, which is adjustable to a certain amount of water it will let through in one go. I more water is drawn in one go then the set amount, the lock will close the water flow. I have it set to 6 liters (which is the smallest setting). So, a leak will ever be more the 6 liters, which is manageable. The Londinium (an most appliances) will never draw that amount of water in one go, so it will not block normal operations.

I've also got one for my dishwasher and washing machine (also set to 6 liters).

mario Pavesi

Thats a very nice idea, thanks for the suggestion, I come across a site its flood master that offers a 10' "rope" detection meaning you can extend the possible wet area along a 10' section I thought was pretty cool, since most of the monitor have one sensor where to place it its a tough decision your system its very simple I like that.

Thanks
Mario

Reiss Gunson

hi jeroen

indeed that is a clever device, thank you for your post. it isn't a criticism, but a point to note on their website;

The Waterblock also ignores any water being drawn at less than 0.5 litres per minute. Therefore it is not suitable for appliances with very low water usage, and minor leaks under this rate will not trigger the device to shut off.

kind regards

reiss.

Jeroen de Meijer

No criticism taken .
Not sure where you read that (can't find it on their site), but I know it won't detect slow leaks, but at least it will help you when a hose ruptures or something. The problem with slow leaks is that they are hard to detect anyway. You never know where it happens and were it will leak to. So effectiveness of a sensor system is really depend on the placement of the single sensor which most likely will be in the wrong place (Murphy). In my case, should I place it under the cupboard (lowest place), in the cupboard (where the tape and the softener is) or under the espresso machine. Or even in front of the cupboard, as a leakage in the machine or in the cupboard would probably spill out in to the front of the cupboard.

I've done some test in the past to check how if it worked, and it worked like a charm. Don't know anymore what measurements I did exactly back then, but in my memory it still worked with less then 0.5 liter/min. But it will be interesting to test again when I have the time.

But I also try not to worry to much, you can't prevent all risks.I consider the chance of a spontaneous small leak to be small. I only use quality copper plumbing and only when absolutely needed good quality breaded hoses. And when we are away for a longer period of time, I always close all the taps (and feel a bit paranoid when doing it). And if a leak happens, my insurance will cover it.

But other might have a different risk appetite of course.
But we are also getting of topic

Bella Jeri

At one point there was a water softener in my basement, but for an unknown reason it was taken out. I am on a well and septic; water is fairly hard, measured at 250 ppm (15(gpg).

I would like to add a water softener again, but the choices and info at local stores such as Lowes, Menards, Sears, etc leaves something to be desired.

The house has a kitchen and three bathrooms, but at present only me living in it. Gas water heater. No dishwashers or whirlpools, though I do shower daily, sometimes more in summer.

Any comments from knowledgeable people about brands known for quality, features or other issues to look for are greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Bella

mario Pavesi

Hi Bella, from your comments I see you live here in the US, as you may know not all products are created equal, just because a name brand is sold at big box store the quality it's not same hence the price well something has to give right? Ok I did a lot of research into water softners we have 12 grains pretty hard so I went for the house with Watermasters, its in the same quality category as Bradford White for water heaters, contact a plumber and tell them what you want, you may want to add a pre filter and carbon filter after it's a difference between day and night on taste, for my espresso machine I have a BWT filter which adds some minerals back as per Frans (the men knows his stuff)
I hope this helps you

Mario

Patrick Bennett

I've read through this thread and found a Canadian supplier of BWT filters but I'm still unsure of whether or not these will add hardness to water which is too soft?

Reiss Gunson

hi patrick

all the BWT filters i am aware of, certainly the ones we discuss on this forum, are softening filters

what i think you need to ask around for is a calcite filter, which i understand can vary in composition but they might typically be 50% calcium carbonate and 50% magnesium carbonate

this process is a contact process so the longer the water sits in that filter the 'harder' it will become

for this reason i suspect you may need to put some thought into the size of calcite filter and how you plumb it into your system - from memory i think you plumbed your espresso machine in some years ago?

kind regards

reiss

Magnus Jern

I've spent the past 25 years drinking coffee and 10 years with water filtration. The challenge in answering your question is that any response will be subjective. Taste is subjective, water quality is a complex science and health aspects of water are even more uncertain.

What I can tell you though is that
1. The quality of public tap water in Europe and North America is generally good enough that there is no reason to filter it other than for aesthetic purposes.
2. Reverse osmosis is water wasting, removes all minerals and generally doesn't result in great tasting water.
3. Water softeners are often sold as a solution extend the life of coffee makers and other machines. The proofpoints around this are questionable. It's true that you will need to clean the coffee maker more frequently. If you really want a water softener then Ion Exchange is the best technology as it replaces the calcium and magnicium ions with more desireable sodium ions and does not alter the taste of the water.
4. Poorly tasting tap water is generally due to chlorine or metals. These can easily be removed with an affordable faucet filter such as PURPUR, Tapp WaterTapp Water or Brita. For $60 per year you get cleaner water without water wastage in a sustainable way.

To me personally coffee tastes great with hard water as long as the chlorine is removed. But like I said. It's all about subjective taste preference.

Alex Mishin

Magnus Jern post=14937 wrote: I've spent the past 25 years drinking coffee and 10 years with water filtration. The challenge in answering your question is that any response will be subjective. Taste is subjective, water quality is a complex science and health aspects of water are even more uncertain.

What I can tell you though is that
1. The quality of public tap water in Europe and North America is generally good enough that there is no reason to filter it other than for aesthetic purposes.
2. Reverse osmosis is water wasting, removes all minerals and generally doesn't result in great tasting water.
3. Water softeners are often sold as a solution extend the life of coffee makers and other machines. The proofpoints around this are questionable. It's true that you will need to clean the coffee maker more frequently. If you really want a water softener then Ion Exchange is the best technology as it replaces the calcium and magnicium ions with more desireable sodium ions and does not alter the taste of the water.
4. Poorly tasting tap water is generally due to chlorine or metals. These can easily be removed with an affordable faucet filter such as PURPUR, Tapp WaterTapp Water or Brita. For $60 per year you get cleaner water without water wastage in a sustainable way.

To me personally coffee tastes great with hard water as long as the chlorine is removed. But like I said. It's all about subjective taste preference.

thank you

Roman Suslo

Hi all
Who can help me with water filter choice?