Hm, yes a thumping from somewhere. Have you tried taking off the top panel and both side panels, listening with a tube like in a finished roll of kitchen towel to determine exactly where it comes from and filming that in detail with good lighting? If there is a tiny leak somewhere in the pipe connections, the pump may be activated in very short blips which may exhaust the pump, getting too hot. Maybe the solenoid is getting old and tired and is clicking on/off and not sealing perfectly. It's handy, on an older machine, to have a solenoid, a non return valve, group seals ready to replace if evert you feel that might be necessary. I recently ordered a number of such parts for myself and two friends and the shipping costs, shared among the three of us, was negligible.
thinking about it some more, one difference between filling the boiler and replenishing the pre-infusion circuit is the pressure that the pump is having to push against, particularly if you are running it at higher preinfusion pressures
you can probably test this idea by dropping the preinfusion pressure to something closer to boiler pressure, and see if that reduces the probability of the pump binding when it is replenishing the preinfusion circuit. if it does you have got some support for the theory
personally i would probably instead try turning the pump pressure adjustment screw out by perhaps one turn, which acts as a clutch and would in effect allow the pump to slip a little if the pressure on the outlet side of the pump was too great for the pump motor to turn (when combined with the rough/sticking points in the pump lining)
if you turn the pump pressure adjustment screw out too far you will drop the pump delivery pressure below 6 bar and then the pump will just run and run at higher PI pressure settings as it will never reach the target pressure, but if you fiddle around with the pressure adjustment screw you may be able to let the pump slip a little, yet still keep the pump delivery pressure above 6 bar
Reiss Gunson post=17219 wrote: thinking about it some more, one difference between filling the boiler and replenishing the pre-infusion circuit is the pressure that the pump is having to push against, particularly if you are running it at higher preinfusion pressures
you can probably test this idea by dropping the preinfusion pressure to something closer to boiler pressure, and see if that reduces the probability of the pump binding when it is replenishing the preinfusion circuit. if it does you have got some support for the theory
personally i would probably instead try turning the pump pressure adjustment screw out by perhaps one turn, which acts as a clutch and would in effect allow the pump to slip a little if the pressure on the outlet side of the pump was too great for the pump motor to turn (when combined with the rough/sticking points in the pump lining)
if you turn the pump pressure adjustment screw out too far you will drop the pump delivery pressure below 6 bar and then the pump will just run and run at higher PI pressure settings as it will never reach the target pressure, but if you fiddle around with the pressure adjustment screw you may be able to let the pump slip a little, yet still keep the pump delivery pressure above 6 bar
kind regards
reiss.
Thanks again for answering! I will try this. Just to be sure - the pressure adjustment screw is the one which sticks out under the cabinet?
And also thank you Frans! I will try to really inspect the machine and the sound. If the is some kind of valve I should look for, is it possible to get a full diagram of where solenoid valve, return valve ect, is placed in the machine?
Reiss Gunson post=17223 wrote: yes: the pressure adjustment screw is the one which sticks out under the cabinet
Another stupid question from me (hope it does not invoke any anger - it is a learning proces for me and for your patience, i guess :-) ) What tool and size of the tool do I have to use?
Reiss Gunson post=17225 wrote: you need a 10mm wrench, or ideally a 10mm socket as this will reach through the hole in the chassis better than a wrench.
I have now tried to adjust the pump without any luck. And the “clicking sound” stems from the pump. I have recorded a video where it is, to me, pretty salient to hear.
Is it normal that the boiler pressure and heating element is affected when flushing the group? When I flush the pressure in the boiler drops and the heating element is turning on. Havent noticed this on other hx machines.
When you do a flush, you let hot water from the Heat Exchanger flow out of the system.
Simultaneously, at the other end of the HX, you inject cold water into the heat exchanger.
The big HX pipe that runs through the width of the boiler without actually exchanging water with the boiler, does exchange heat, hence its name.
The boiler element heats the boiler water which heats the HX which heats the water inside the HX.
If you push cold water into it, this cools down the boiler, which lowers the boiler steam pressure, which activates the Pressostat, which activates the heating element, which raises the temperature of the boiler water, which heats up the water inside the HX and raises the boiler steam pressure, which allows the P-stat to switch off the heating element.
If the big bulky HX is inside a much much bigger boiler, this effect is less easy to see.
Emil Rønnow post=17240 wrote: Is it normal that the boiler pressure and heating element is affected when flushing the group? When I flush the pressure in the boiler drops and the heating element is turning on.
hi Emil
that behaviour is normal, as explained by Frans
if you want something to adjust that boiler pressure is too high; it needs to stop at 1.0 bar, although first check when the machine is cold that the needle on the pressure gauge is resting at 0 bar
Reiss Gunson post=17249 wrote: [quote=Emil Rønnow post=17240]Is it normal that the boiler pressure and heating element is affected when flushing the group? When I flush the pressure in the boiler drops and the heating element is turning on.
hi Emil
that behaviour is normal, as explained by Frans
if you want something to adjust that boiler pressure is too high; it needs to stop at 1.0 bar, although first check when the machine is cold that the needle on the pressure gauge is resting at 0 bar
kind regards
reiss. Thanks - I will do that.
I have just recorded a video of the app where I am pulling a shot - to me it looks ok: what du you think?
The pump has not acted up the last couple of days since adjusting the pressure. I will see the next days before ordering the new pump.
The clicking sound is now only present when the machine is cold and warming up. Does this have something to say?
Edit: Just now when flushing the group, the pump was delayed ~7-8 seconds and afterwards the clicking started again eventhough the machine is warmed fully up.
“1. unplug the machine from electrical supply 2. remove the plastic water tank, top, left, right, and back panels from the machine 3. trace the white and black wires down from the top of the pump motor to the spade connectors on the end of each wire where they plug into the wiring loom and take photos of the connections before you unplug them (although strictly speaking it is an AC motor so the polarity of the wires does not matter) 4. take a pair of long nose pliers and gently compress the end of the stainless steel wire jubilee clip on the pump inlet that secures the clear silicone inlet hose, and wriggle the stainless jubilee clip off the pump inlet and down the silicone inlet hose (personally i take the stainless wire clip off and throw it away as it is a curse to get on and off and is not needed as there is no pressure on the silicone inlet hose as it is only gravity fed by the weight of water in the reservoir) 5. take a 13mm combination wrench and undo the braided stainless steel pressure hose from the pump outlet 6. then take your allen key and undo the 4 cap screws that secure the pump to the frame; you will probably need to push the screws right out and also the rubber grommets as you need to create as much space as you can to get the pump out, typically backwards and upwards, which is why you need to remove the back panel 7. fit the new pump and mount the 4 cap screws to hold it in place, and reconnect the two pump wires to the wiring loom 8. reconnect the braided stainless steel pressure hose to the new pump, taking care to ensure that you do not induce twist in the hose as you tighten it up, otherwise the hose will crimp and the pump will not be able to deliver any water to the machine (this is important to note as it happens very easily) 9. hang the silicone inlet hose for the pump into a bowl with at least a couple of litres of capacity and then refit the plastic water tank into the water tank carrier and half fill it with water: water will immediately start to pour out the end of the silicone inlet hose and into the bowl you have it dangling in. once the air has bled from the line (this will happen after 5 seconds of flow) take the end of the silicone inlet hose from the bowl and quickly push it onto the inlet spigot on the pump, refitting the jubilee clip if you choose to retain it 10. pull the lever into the fully locked down position on the cam and leave it there, being aware that if you catch your shirt sleeve or anything else on the lever it will fly up and whack you in the face with considerable force and the resultant harm may be considerable 11. with dry hands, turn the machine on; after a brief delay the pump should turn on and shortly after that water should start to pour from the shower screen; this is your que to raise the lever out of the locked down position up to its 'beyond vertical' resting position, which will cause the pump to turn off as the target pressure will be quickly reached when the piston returns to the down position in the group (lever up) 12. leave the panels off the machine and the machine on for say 1 hour to check for leaks, keeping children and others away during this time 13. refit panels”
Regarding the priming the pump, you write:
“priming the pump before you start it is the key bit; bleeding the air from the feed line line and then pulling the lever into the locked down position so there is no pressure on the outlet side of the pump to make it harder than it needs to be for the pump to make that initial pull of the water, and then you're away.”
Can you specify what you mean by “bleeding the air line”?
step (9) details how to bleed the air from the water supply hose from the tank
it is critically important that you do not have air trapped in that line otherwise the pump turns at very high speed with no load on it as it will not pull water if there is air in that line
as a result the pump lining is damaged, and thereafter it binds when it comes to rest at a certain position internally
Reiss Gunson post=17257 wrote: step (9) details how to bleed the air from the water supply hose from the tank
it is critically important that you do not have air trapped in that line otherwise the pump turns at very high speed with no load on it as it will not pull water if there is air in that line
as a result the pump lining is damaged, and thereafter it binds when it comes to rest at a certain position internally
aaah of course! Thanks! When doing this am I supposed to squeeze the hose to prevent water spilling all over and on the pump when attaching to it?
yes just pinch the silicone tubing between your forefinger and thumb; it is very supple so there is no issue
there is very little pressure from the water in the tank so you aren't having to squeeze the life out of it
a bit of water sprayed around will not do any harm providing you have the machine unplugged from the electrical supply
within 30 minutes of turning it back on afterwards i promise you that the heat from the boiler will have driven out every last drop of moisture from every nook and cranny in the machine, wherever you splash water
try not to spray more water around than necessary obviously, but equally, dont worry about any that does get splashed around either
Pump has been changed - a very easy job. But the problem still persist. I have followed all the steps and REALLY taking care about bleeding air out of the hose with water. The following is a video of the first startup after changing the pump:
Is the orange cable not connected to electrical connector on purpose? Maybe it is a difference between converted and native machine with digital pre-infusion kit...
this one was a very interesting case as this machine has previously had several pumps at the insistence of the original owner
so with the passing of the machine to the second owner and mysteriously the pump again was meant to have failed when we are not seeing this across the board we had a video call and i noticed that when the lever was being pulled down the measured pressure in the preinfusion circuit was not falling in response to the lever being pulled down, so it was entirely logical that the pump would not turn on, but for sure the pump was not at fault as it was happily filling the boiler
so i sent a replacement pressure transducer, the first ever that we have known to cause a problem, and the issue is now solved
hopefully this post is useful to someone at some point in the future
Reiss Gunson post=17292 wrote: this one was a very interesting case as this machine has previously had several pumps at the insistence of the original owner
so with the passing of the machine to the second owner and mysteriously the pump again was meant to have failed when we are not seeing this across the board we had a video call and i noticed that when the lever was being pulled down the measured pressure in the preinfusion circuit was not falling in response to the lever being pulled down, so it was entirely logical that the pump would not turn on, but for sure the pump was not at fault as it was happily filling the boiler
so i sent a replacement pressure transducer, the first ever that we have known to cause a problem, and the issue is now solved
hopefully this post is useful to someone at some point in the future
kind regards
reiss.
Very kind and professional help and advice from Reiss! A big thank you to you.
Comments
If there is a tiny leak somewhere in the pipe connections, the pump may be activated in very short blips which may exhaust the pump, getting too hot. Maybe the solenoid is getting old and tired and is clicking on/off and not sealing perfectly. It's handy, on an older machine, to have a solenoid, a non return valve, group seals ready to replace if evert you feel that might be necessary. I recently ordered a number of such parts for myself and two friends and the shipping costs, shared among the three of us, was negligible.
you can probably test this idea by dropping the preinfusion pressure to something closer to boiler pressure, and see if that reduces the probability of the pump binding when it is replenishing the preinfusion circuit. if it does you have got some support for the theory
personally i would probably instead try turning the pump pressure adjustment screw out by perhaps one turn, which acts as a clutch and would in effect allow the pump to slip a little if the pressure on the outlet side of the pump was too great for the pump motor to turn (when combined with the rough/sticking points in the pump lining)
if you turn the pump pressure adjustment screw out too far you will drop the pump delivery pressure below 6 bar and then the pump will just run and run at higher PI pressure settings as it will never reach the target pressure, but if you fiddle around with the pressure adjustment screw you may be able to let the pump slip a little, yet still keep the pump delivery pressure above 6 bar
kind regards
reiss.
And also thank you Frans! I will try to really inspect the machine and the sound. If the is some kind of valve I should look for, is it possible to get a full diagram of where solenoid valve, return valve ect, is placed in the machine?
I attach what the solenoid looks like.
Attached files
What tool and size of the tool do I have to use?
Now the next thing to do (and the only possible explanation - right?) is to change the pump?
Can you confirm that this https://londiniumespresso.com/store/parts?product_id=269&sort=p.price&order=DESC is the right pump for me when living in EU (Denmark)?
Havent noticed this on other hx machines.
Simultaneously, at the other end of the HX, you inject cold water into the heat exchanger.
The big HX pipe that runs through the width of the boiler without actually exchanging water with the boiler, does exchange heat, hence its name.
The boiler element heats the boiler water which heats the HX which heats the water inside the HX.
If you push cold water into it, this cools down the boiler, which lowers the boiler steam pressure, which activates the Pressostat, which activates the heating element, which raises the temperature of the boiler water, which heats up the water inside the HX and raises the boiler steam pressure, which allows the P-stat to switch off the heating element.
If the big bulky HX is inside a much much bigger boiler, this effect is less easy to see.
Can you confirm that this https://londiniumespresso.com/store/parts?product_id=269&sort=p.price&order=DESC is the right pump for me when living in EU (Denmark)?
Yes to both the questions above.
hi Emil
that behaviour is normal, as explained by Frans
if you want something to adjust that boiler pressure is too high; it needs to stop at 1.0 bar, although first check when the machine is cold that the needle on the pressure gauge is resting at 0 bar
kind regards
reiss.
hi Emil
that behaviour is normal, as explained by Frans
if you want something to adjust that boiler pressure is too high; it needs to stop at 1.0 bar, although first check when the machine is cold that the needle on the pressure gauge is resting at 0 bar
kind regards
reiss.
Thanks - I will do that.
I have just recorded a video of the app where I am pulling a shot - to me it looks ok: what du you think?
The pump has not acted up the last couple of days since adjusting the pressure. I will see the next days before ordering the new pump.
The clicking sound is now only present when the machine is cold and warming up. Does this have something to say?
Edit: Just now when flushing the group, the pump was delayed ~7-8 seconds and afterwards the clicking started again eventhough the machine is warmed fully up.
Do you have some instructions on how to install the pump?
And the best ways to prime the pump?
Do I need any special tools?
Kind regards
“1. unplug the machine from electrical supply
2. remove the plastic water tank, top, left, right, and back panels from the machine
3. trace the white and black wires down from the top of the pump motor to the spade connectors on the end of each wire where they plug into the wiring loom and take photos of the connections before you unplug them (although strictly speaking it is an AC motor so the polarity of the wires does not matter)
4. take a pair of long nose pliers and gently compress the end of the stainless steel wire jubilee clip on the pump inlet that secures the clear silicone inlet hose, and wriggle the stainless jubilee clip off the pump inlet and down the silicone inlet hose (personally i take the stainless wire clip off and throw it away as it is a curse to get on and off and is not needed as there is no pressure on the silicone inlet hose as it is only gravity fed by the weight of water in the reservoir)
5. take a 13mm combination wrench and undo the braided stainless steel pressure hose from the pump outlet
6. then take your allen key and undo the 4 cap screws that secure the pump to the frame; you will probably need to push the screws right out and also the rubber grommets as you need to create as much space as you can to get the pump out, typically backwards and upwards, which is why you need to remove the back panel
7. fit the new pump and mount the 4 cap screws to hold it in place, and reconnect the two pump wires to the wiring loom
8. reconnect the braided stainless steel pressure hose to the new pump, taking care to ensure that you do not induce twist in the hose as you tighten it up, otherwise the hose will crimp and the pump will not be able to deliver any water to the machine (this is important to note as it happens very easily)
9. hang the silicone inlet hose for the pump into a bowl with at least a couple of litres of capacity and then refit the plastic water tank into the water tank carrier and half fill it with water: water will immediately start to pour out the end of the silicone inlet hose and into the bowl you have it dangling in. once the air has bled from the line (this will happen after 5 seconds of flow) take the end of the silicone inlet hose from the bowl and quickly push it onto the inlet spigot on the pump, refitting the jubilee clip if you choose to retain it
10. pull the lever into the fully locked down position on the cam and leave it there, being aware that if you catch your shirt sleeve or anything else on the lever it will fly up and whack you in the face with considerable force and the resultant harm may be considerable
11. with dry hands, turn the machine on; after a brief delay the pump should turn on and shortly after that water should start to pour from the shower screen; this is your que to raise the lever out of the locked down position up to its 'beyond vertical' resting position, which will cause the pump to turn off as the target pressure will be quickly reached when the piston returns to the down position in the group (lever up)
12. leave the panels off the machine and the machine on for say 1 hour to check for leaks, keeping children and others away during this time
13. refit panels”
Regarding the priming the pump, you write:
“priming the pump before you start it is the key bit; bleeding the air from the feed line line and then pulling the lever into the locked down position so there is no pressure on the outlet side of the pump to make it harder than it needs to be for the pump to make that initial pull of the water, and then you're away.”
Can you specify what you mean by “bleeding the air line”?
Kind regards
Emil
it is critically important that you do not have air trapped in that line otherwise the pump turns at very high speed with no load on it as it will not pull water if there is air in that line
as a result the pump lining is damaged, and thereafter it binds when it comes to rest at a certain position internally
aaah of course! Thanks! When doing this am I supposed to squeeze the hose to prevent water spilling all over and on the pump when attaching to it?
there is very little pressure from the water in the tank so you aren't having to squeeze the life out of it
a bit of water sprayed around will not do any harm providing you have the machine unplugged from the electrical supply
within 30 minutes of turning it back on afterwards i promise you that the heat from the boiler will have driven out every last drop of moisture from every nook and cranny in the machine, wherever you splash water
try not to spray more water around than necessary obviously, but equally, dont worry about any that does get splashed around either
kind regards
reiss.
But the problem still persist. I have followed all the steps and REALLY taking care about bleeding air out of the hose with water.
The following is a video of the first startup after changing the pump:
What could the problem be???
i have emailed you to arrange a video call
it would appear that the pump is not receiving electricity, but lets take a closer look
kind regards
reiss.
Maybe it is a difference between converted and native machine with digital pre-infusion kit...
so with the passing of the machine to the second owner and mysteriously the pump again was meant to have failed when we are not seeing this across the board we had a video call and i noticed that when the lever was being pulled down the measured pressure in the preinfusion circuit was not falling in response to the lever being pulled down, so it was entirely logical that the pump would not turn on, but for sure the pump was not at fault as it was happily filling the boiler
so i sent a replacement pressure transducer, the first ever that we have known to cause a problem, and the issue is now solved
hopefully this post is useful to someone at some point in the future
kind regards
reiss.